Talk:Judo

The section about Competion scoring says: "Two scores of waza-ari equal an ippon waza-ari awasete ippon. This rule was cancelled in 2017, but it was resumed in 2018." And then, in the next paragraph: "The International Judo Federation recently announced changes in evaluation of points. There will only be ippon and waza-ari scores given during a match with yuko scores now included within waza-ari. Multiple waza-ari scores are no longer converted into ippon scores.[66]", where the link leads to a 2016 document (which just shows the phrase "recently" should be banned on Wikipedia).

So, what are the current rules? Do we have yukos? Are two waza-aris converted to an ippon? The current section is very confusing, and removing it would increase the quality of the article. 62.216.5.216 (talk) 15:09, 13 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

There are no yukos from 2017. Two waza-aris converted to an ippon from 2018.--Hiroshi takahashi (talk) 10:38, 19 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

James Bregman will be promoted to 10th degree dan black belt by the Kodokan this Saturday.

https://fox17online.com/2018/07/06/james-bregman-to-receive-promotion-to-10th-degree-black-belt-in-grand-rapids/

This is incredible news, as only 15 men have ever achieved this rank, and Bregman will be the first non-Asian to do so. I'm not really up on how to update/edit Wiki articles, so whoever is should feel free to handle it. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.176.233.63 (talk) 01:19, 7 July 2018 (UTC) Is this relevant to the article? I understand it is significant to Judo, but don't understand how it is relevant to defining Judo. It seems promotional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Onalaska46 (talk • contribs) 18:21, 2 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

The text above is incorrect. He was promoted by his national governing body, not by the Kodokan. He's listed in List of judoka#Highest grades. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 23:33, 2 March 2020 (UTC)Reply

There is nothing explaining Rei in the article. @Dhtwiki We should mark that this is part of pedagogy and the tradition of Judo. It is good and important for parents who want to know more on the sport, to understand why participants in judo bow to each other. Tried to write and I also added an external link for a person to read about what these salutations in judo really mean. Read more here There are fundamentals that everyone should know and that are part of the judo culture. Just like handshaking is part of the European culture. You need to know why you are bowing to the opponent and not think that this is something humiliating or it is a Buddhist tradition, as many believe when watching our sport... Dr2114 (talk) 19:08, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

If we are going to include such a thing, it should be based on something that meets Wikipedia's sourcing requirements, not 'e-judo.com', which clearly does not. MrOllie (talk) 19:12, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Ok, these are according to the sourcing requirements - look at here @MrOllie @Dhtwiki

http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/courtesy/etiquette/

http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/courtesy/grace/

There is a lot of information on Rei everywhere. I was surprised when I saw that Wikipedia didn't have information on REI in English. It is a shame... This is so important for a judoka - it is the first thing that he learns when he comes to a dojo - the judo etiquette. I added e-judo.com because it is simple and explained with an example from our western culture. Also, the writer in e-judo.com is a 4th Dan Judoka, a physical education teacher and a member of the Kodokan Tokyo - they even presented him in public Greek TV as an expert (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr4Qsmde3RY) . In e-judo the explanations are written in a simple language, so that everyone interested can understand. Dr2114 (talk) 19:38, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Please read the sourcing requirements I just linked. Personal websites should not be used, even if the writer has appeared on television. We should use books and journal articles from reputable publishers. Judo is well studied and often written about, there is no reason to resort to questionable sources. MrOllie (talk) 20:06, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Is Kodokan Judo Institute a questionable source? Dr2114 (talk) 20:25, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Is it a book or journal article from a reputable publisher? MrOllie (talk) 20:40, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Do you know what is "Kodokan Judo Institute"? Dr2114 (talk) 20:43, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I know what it isn't: an academic publisher. MrOllie (talk) 20:50, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Obviously, from your answers you are not familiar with the "Kodokan Judo Institute". It is already used in the article. Also, "Kodokan Judo Institute" writes the same things as e-judo, which you reverted for no reason, saying that is a questionable source. How can it be a questionable source when the meaning of the information is same? Please, next time first read and don't revert information that is good about judo. We love judo and we should work for it and not against it. This is why we are here and I guess you as well... Dr2114 (talk) 21:04, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for pointing it out, it should not have been referenced in the article. Since the cites to 'Kodokan Judo Institute' were redundant citations anyway, I just removed them. Please read WP:RS. It is not about whether the information is correct, or matches other sources, it is about how the information is checked, edited, and published. If you want to contribute to Wikipedia you will have to become familiar with sourcing standards here. I did not revert your edit 'for no reason' - I reverted for the reasons that I gave - the source you used does not meet Wikipedia's minimum requirements. MrOllie (talk) 21:33, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

There is still an external link down in the article which leads to "Kodokan Judo Institute". You should not remove it! There is nobody more reliable than the "Kodokan Judo Institute". Please read a little bit more on judo, don't be obsessed with WP:RS. It is wrong to remove so important things and it can only be bad, about Wikipedia as well. The "Kodokan Judo Institute" is the Mecca of Judo - they have also academic publishers in Japan and they are the most reputable publisher in all Judo. So the information is checked, edited and published and it also matches e-judo... Perhaps you should check the Japanese edition of the article. Do you know Japanese? Dr2114 (talk) 21:48, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

If you think that Wikipedia's policies and guidelines should be changed, you can argue that at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy), but we're not going to simply ignore them because you said so on an article talk page. The Japanese edition of Wikipedia has completely different policies - what they do there has no bearing on what we do here. MrOllie (talk) 22:03, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I think that Wikipedia's policy is first about correct information. So what you have written up is also wrong 'It is not about whether the information is correct, or matches other sources, it is about how the information is checked, edited, and published'. Perhaps it is not wise to make corrections on a judo page, especially before you study a little bit more on judo and after about rules. Dr2114 (talk) 22:09, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

No. Wikipedia's policy requires verifiable information, which is not the same thing. If you want to contribute here you must read the policies and try to understand them. Perhaps it is not wise to edit Wikipedia, especially before you study a little bit more how it is written. MrOllie (talk) 22:12, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

So you don't know Japanese, you don't know the "Kodokan Judo Institute" and you are giving advices about verifiable information on judo? Isn't judo a Japanese sport? Which is the language where most verifiable information is written about judo? What other languages do you speak except English or English is the only language you speak? Please, study a little bit more on judo first and after do corrections on a judo article. Until now you are only doing bad on Wikipedia and you are also deleting verifiable information, that can be useful for the public and especially for people interested in judo. Dr2114 (talk) 22:31, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I am giving you advice about how to edit Wikipedia within the bounds set by its policies. I'm not interested in answering irrelevant personal questions. MrOllie (talk) 22:48, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

You are giving me advice how to delete verifiable information. You are also doing a damage to Wikipedia without realizing it. You are deleting sources and external links that you shouldn't and that are useful to the public. For example you deleted "Kodokan Judo Institute" but you don't know that some of the names/authors in the list below are also by "Kodokan Judo Institute" - they even used the Kodokan publishing.... De facto you are going against Wikipedia policy and the most terrible of all is that you are going against the public interest, which Wikipedia should serve. Dr2114 (talk) 22:57, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

If I am damaging Wikipedia, feel free to report me to the admins. But unless/until I get blocked, I'm going to continue to edit according to WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:EL. Sometimes that means removing improperly sourced content. MrOllie (talk) 23:14, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I will restore the links to the Kodokan Judo Institute, which is about as official as it gets in the world of Judo, both for its being an official site (unless proven otherwise) and as a reliable source to support article text. That is until there is consensus here for its removal. I will also wait for consensus on the addition of material involving etiquette, which I think went too far (certainly giving more than what I read at the Kodokan site) in giving rationales for bowing (e.g. it's not a way of displaying a lack of hidden weapons). Dhtwiki (talk) 03:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I agree with the restoration of "Kodokan Judo Institute". I could not agree more and I'm happy about it. As far it concerns etiquette, I suggest that we should add that "Rei is a symbol of peace and friendship". You can read more about it in Japanese here. If it is insisted don't use e-judo.com as a source. Either way valuable information that is correct should be added.

We need to keep in mind that historically what is written in e-judo is correct. In Europe we use a handshake to show no possession of weapon (Handshake). We specifically do this with our "right hand", because a sword was held mainly with the "right hand" historically. Bowing is the Japanese way to do so (Bowing in Japan). This derives from the Samurai and if somebody knows Japanese he can directly read or search information about it . Everything is about culture. Judo and sport unites people and turns them into friends and this is what Rei - the judo etiquette - stands for. This is one of the reasons why judo is universal and so popular in our world. We must explain this and not let people thinking that bowing in judo is a sign of humiliation in front of the opponent - there are specific historical and cultural reasons why this is used.

The army has a different way of greeting (Greeting an officer). They put their hand near their head - this derives from taking of the protective helmet in the middle ages to show that "I come in peace'. The Romans/Vikings/Spartans were shaking forearms (where blades were kept usually). Everything is originally connected to a weapon and it has symbolism behind it. Check National Geographic.

E-judo.com is an official website just like judoinfo and judoinside in the English speaking world (I see that these last 2 are used in the footnotes and in the external links). In Greece e-judo is in the top 3 websites about judo, provided that you speak Greek. In north Greece it is the number 1 website. I also can agree with you that perhaps the problem can be that most of the information written there is in Greek and this can be a problem.

Can you suggest something that combines all this information I mentioned and at the same time is written directly in English? Isn't it better using this as a source, than using a lot of Japanese sources combined together? Dr2114 (talk) 08:10, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I don't know e-judo.com; so, can't comment on its suitability. Consequently, I would stick to what the Kodokan has to say. We don't need to delve into the origins of the bow that is a part of Judo etiquette, but stick to what it has come to mean – a ritual gesture of respect. In other words, be brief. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:53, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I completely agree with you that it needs to be brief and stick to the point. The reason why I think that we should mention the "origins of bowing" is because there are many incidents in judo where parents (usually Muslim) don't allow the child to do Rei - bow, for religious reasons. Sometimes they even don't let the child go into training "because of bowing". This is because they don't know where "bowing derives from" in judo and they connect it with something "religious and humiliating". You can read more about these types of incidents in judo here This is the reason why fanatic Muslims don't want to hear about judo - there are also Christians who believe that this is a Buddhist sport and it is "evil by the devil", because of bowing... I know it sounds absurd because it is like saying that handshake is a religious symbol, but it is a fact. This is why it is important to educate the public, otherwise this goes against our sport, that we so much love. Dr2114 (talk) 09:46, 18 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

The study of judo brings with it so much cultural baggage that I wonder if people who resist the adoption of those traditions are ever going to be a large part of the Judo community and how much their resistance, whether from misunderstanding or other reasons, needs to be noted as being significant. After all, such people can study judo techniques that are often adopted by other martial arts, under other names and without the other demands of judo, such as etiquette, dress, etc. But perhaps you'd like to place a brief summary here of what you would have in mind for the article, and maybe we can come to an agreement. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:58, 20 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

What is your opinion on the following?

"Judo culture and etiquette starts with a Rei - bowing. All Judo exercises and competitions start and end with this special gesture. Rei stands for mutual respect and it is a symbol of peace and friendship. Showing an empty hand, in a Handshake, or indicating the back of the body, with a bow, is associated with the possession of weapons." Dr2114 (talk) 13:29, 21 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Dhtwiki Could you please tell me your opinion on the brief summary that I posed, so that we can come to an agreement together? Dr2114 (talk) 06:47, 28 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Dr2114: Sorry to take so long. You need to trim, and leave out the misplaced external links and boldfacing. For one thing, we don't know that "All Judo exercises and competitions start and end with this special gesture." We know just what is recommended. In my experience, only randori (and competitions) would begin with a bow, not all exercises. Then, I wouldn't go beyond what the Kodokan says; and I would leave out comparisons to other gestures, such as handshakes or that the gesture arose out of a display of *non*-possession of weapons, as being unnecessary and something I don't remember being discussed at the Kodokan site. Finally, where do you see this text being placed in the article? Dhtwiki (talk) 08:47, 28 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Dhtwiki Sorry to take so long, I was little ill and not feeling alright. I think that this should go either in "pedagogy" or we could write/create a separate title "Judo etiquette" and maybe someone else will add more in time about it. As far as it concerns exercises, in my experience in Kodokan Tokyo bowing/Rei is everywhere, not only randori. They even do Za-Rei which is kneeling Rei from Seiza position and without turning their back to Jigoro Kano chair - from respect they don't show their back to the teachers side Shomeni/Kamiza, when they greet each other. Also, in Kodokan only white Judogi is allowed. In Japan - sometimes they even see you in the street and they do Tachi-Rei / Ritsu-Rei. In Europe it is not that popular, I agree with you, we more use handshakes here between exercises, except some dojos where teachers are more strict and they insist on proper judo etiquette - I had a teacher like that (De Berardinins), a former world champion in Judo Kata and he even insisted on going on the mat with the "proper leg" and executing Rei perfectly (you see proper greeting also plays role in the Judo Kata evaluation). Keep in mind that the Kodokan websites mentions a lot more information in Japanese than it does in English... What do you think about creating a separate title "Judo etiquette"? Also, what is your opinion on the following:

"Judo culture and etiquette starts with a Rei - bowing. Judo exercises and competitions start and end with this special gesture. Rei stands for mutual respect and it is a symbol of peace and friendship." Dr2114 (talk) 12:30, 13 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Dr2114: I think your sentence is admirably brief and that your suggested placement is good; but the wording is too broad. Perhaps:

Judo etiquette involves often bowing (rei  ) before and after exercises and competitions.

This could go under a separate subsection at the start of the "Pedagogy" subsection. You might add to it, but you'll need to provide a proper citation to support that and whatever you might want to add. You can't use just your personal observations, although you can use them to guide you in deciding what might be important. See WP:CITE, as you seem to be a fairly new editor, for how to construct citations. Dhtwiki (talk) 20:12, 19 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

Per WP:COMMONNAME, judoka is the preferred version. See [1] Catfish Jim and the soapdish 13:19, 2 May 2023 (UTC)Reply