Talk:Trans woman

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This section is here to provide answers to some questions that have been previously discussed on this talk page.

Note: This FAQ is only here to let people know that these points have previously been addressed, not to prevent any further discussion of these issues.

Q1: Why does the article define trans woman the way that it does?

A1: The definition is the result of a 2022 Request for Comment (RfC) located at Talk:Trans woman/Archive 10#RfC on first sentence (itself subsequent to a 2018 RfC located at Talk:Trans woman/Archive 4#RfC on introduction). In both RfCs, there was no consensus as to which option was preferable; in the absence of affirmative consensus, the pre-existing text remained in place both times. Wikipedia content, including that decided on by RfCs, should be based on the due weight of reliable sources. Such sources are being collected at Talk:Trans woman/Definitions; anyone is welcome to contribute definitions there for future reference.

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated, especially about Neutral point of view, Wording of lede and Contradicts the articles woman and female. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting on that topic, and read through the list of highlighted discussions below before starting a new one:

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This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.

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Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2024

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In the last paragraph of 'Terminology' change "The term has historically been applies to people..." to "The term has historically been applied to people..." PolyCloud (talk) 05:08, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 05:26, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Definition is Flawed

WP:NPA, WP:NOTFORUM

The point being made by previous attempts to improve this article is that the article linked to the word "woman" defines that word as "adult human female." The definition of "trans woman" is therefore not only circular, it's illogical as it also requires that a trans woman is "assigned male at birth." The definition cannot require that they're both male and female as that would make them literally hermaphroditic (a biological impossibility in mammals), which is both an incorrect definition of what trans women essentially are and is statistically inconsistent with reality. Conversely, it also inherently and unequivocally (and correctly) implies that trans women can't have been conceived and born female which further bolsters the point that the definition in the linked article of "woman" is contradictory.

Furthermore, the usage of the phrase "assigned at birth" implies both ambiguity and discretion (on the part of medical staff) at birth when sex is determined by the sperm at the moment of conception. This article is based on a poorly written definition that fails the most basic linguistic and scientific standards used in any other context. More alarmingly, the article fails to even remotely acknowledge, let alone address, the lack of real consensus that this very discussion should represent. In nearly any other context, but especially one regarding the definition of a word in which a subgroup of an essentially excluded group (in this case, "men") can now be included, there would be a "Definition Controversy" section but this article conspicuously lacks that.

A better definition is: "a trans woman is a man who identifies as, or whose gender identity aligns with that of, a woman." This definition is not only succinct, it doesn't contradict itself. It also doesn't compromise the definition of "woman," which must remain intact in order for the term and identity of "trans woman" to have any subsequent meaning as it contains the word in it. Tpetross (talk) 04:32, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't go by what editors' personal analyses conclude. We go by what reliable sources say. And they do not say "a trans woman is a man who identifies as, or whose gender identity aligns with that of, a woman". EvergreenFir (talk) 04:39, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Possible inaccuracy

I believe the following messaging derived from #67 is most likely inaccurate: "In 2016, 23 transgender people suffered fatal attacks in the United States."

The source does not use the language "attacks". Attack implies an offensive assault; however, the source is listing violence in general. The report from 2016 (which is reference within the source) also does not use the language "attack" to describe all of the events, only specific events. This is most likely intentional, as one of the events was a police shooting where the person who was shot lunged at police officers with a knife.

I'm not sure what this could be changed to, possibly just "In 2016, 23 transgender people suffered fatal violence". The "attacks" verbiage added by a Wikipedia editor should most likely be removed, as it's not in the source, and appears to be inaccurate. CodingApe (talk) 06:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should avoid accidentally implying that all deaths were the result of unprovoked hate crimes or murder, but I'm not sure how much we can do about this. I don't see a huge difference between suffering a fatal attack vs. fatal violence. If we do change it, think I'd prefer In 2016, at least 23 transgender people were killed in the United States. as it is the least ambiguous. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 15:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is much better. The syntax/sound is better than the replacement I came up with as well.

Somewhat unrelated, but it might be worthwhile to expand on the homicide rate in this section, so readers who are familiar with the number of transgender individuals in the United States don't infer that all transgender individuals experience a homicide rate that is much lower than the national average. That is the initial impression I got when I read the listed figure, and the original reason why I clicked through to review the source.

According to this study, the homicide rate is lower for transgender individuals in general; however, higher for black and latina trans women compared to cis women belonging to those same demographics. The authors of the original source also make note of this, as they state: "it is clear that fatal violence disproportionately affects transgender women of color". CodingApe (talk) 19:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]