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Maniphest T317375

[Config change] Deploy New Topic Tool as opt-out preference at fi.wiki (desktop)
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Description

This task is about making the New Topic Tool available as opt-out features on desktop at the Finnish Wikipedia (fi.wiki).

Originally the Finnish Wikipedia community opposed the change, primarily because the New Topic Tool doesn't display parts of the user interface used by senior users to post predefined talk page messages.

In the end, we have agreed to make the tool opt-out for new users only, and opt-in for senior users. This is technically achieved by running a maintenance script that opts out active users with at least 100 edits (as if they have changed the preference themselves).

Details

SubjectRepoBranchLines +/-
Enable DiscussionTools newtopictool on fiwikioperations/mediawiki-configmaster+0 -1
NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc.mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionToolswmf/1.41.0-wmf.9+16 -0
Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibilitymediawiki/extensions/DiscussionToolswmf/1.41.0-wmf.9+2 -0
Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic toolmediawiki/extensions/DiscussionToolswmf/1.41.0-wmf.9+121 -1
NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc.mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionToolswmf/1.41.0-wmf.8+16 -0
NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc.mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionToolsmaster+16 -0
Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibilitymediawiki/extensions/DiscussionToolsmaster+2 -0
Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibilitymediawiki/extensions/DiscussionToolswmf/1.41.0-wmf.8+2 -0
Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic toolmediawiki/extensions/DiscussionToolswmf/1.41.0-wmf.8+121 -1
Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic toolmediawiki/extensions/DiscussionToolsmaster+121 -1
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Restricted Application added a subscriber: Aklapper. · View Herald TranscriptSep 8 2022, 11:26 PM
ppelberg updated the task description. (Show Details)Sep 8 2022, 11:26 PM
ppelberg moved this task from Backlog to Triaged on the DiscussionTools board.
ppelberg mentioned this in T275256: Make New Topic Tool (desktop) available as opt-out feature at all wikis.
Tacsipacsi updated the task description. (Show Details)Sep 9 2022, 11:27 AM
Tacsipacsi subscribed.
• Whatamidoing-WMF subscribed.Oct 4 2022, 6:14 PM

There is a screenshot that will be useful if fiwiki editors want to see what we're talking about:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:DiscussionTools_New_Topic_tool_hint_2022_fi.png

VPuffetMichel moved this task from Backlog to Stalled on the Editing-team (Deployments) board.Oct 21 2022, 5:14 PM
VPuffetMichel moved this task from Stalled to Done on the Editing-team (Deployments) board.
VPuffetMichel moved this task from Done to Stalled on the Editing-team (Deployments) board.
VPuffetMichel moved this task from Stalled to In Progress on the Editing-team (Deployments) board.
VPuffetMichel moved this task from In Progress to Deploy this week on the Editing-team (Deployments) board.Oct 21 2022, 5:25 PM
matmarex edited projects, added Editing-team (Kanban Board), TPP-Scaling; removed Editing-team (Deployments).Oct 24 2022, 8:37 PM
matmarex moved this task from Scaling Epics to Deployment Phases on the TPP-Scaling board.Oct 24 2022, 8:41 PM
ppelberg added a subtask: T315529: Remove Reply, NewTopic and Subscriptions tools from Beta description.Oct 25 2022, 4:35 PM
ppelberg removed a subtask: T315529: Remove Reply, NewTopic and Subscriptions tools from Beta description.
ppelberg added a parent task: T315529: Remove Reply, NewTopic and Subscriptions tools from Beta description.
VPuffetMichel moved this task from Deployment Phases to Scheduled Deployments on the TPP-Scaling board.Oct 25 2022, 6:24 PM
ppelberg removed a project: Editing-team (Kanban Board).Dec 12 2022, 5:57 PM
Iniquity subscribed.Apr 3 2023, 9:12 PM

The editors at fiwiki are asking if it's possible to enable default features for anonymous and not-autoconf users?

Iniquity added a subscriber: matmarex.Apr 10 2023, 9:10 AM
In T317375#8752391, @Iniquity wrote:

The editors at fiwiki are asking if it's possible to enable default features for anonymous and not-autoconf users?

@matmarex hello :) can you help with the answer?

matmarex added a comment.Apr 11 2023, 8:55 PM

Hi, we don't have a config option for that right now, but it could be added if it's desired. We have similar config options for other features (e.g. DiscussionTools automatic subscriptions are only enabled by default for new users).

Iniquity added a comment.Apr 13 2023, 8:38 AM
In T317375#8773515, @matmarex wrote:

Hi, we don't have a config option for that right now, but it could be added if it's desired. We have similar config options for other features (e.g. DiscussionTools automatic subscriptions are only enabled by default for new users).

Thanks :) Does it make sense for me to say in the discussion that this is possible and if the community decides, will you do this?

matmarex added a comment.Apr 13 2023, 5:41 PM

@Iniquity I'll discuss with the team and get back to you next week. I have two things to say now:

We've done similar rollouts in the past, but since then we discovered some issues that make us wary of using the same approach in more cases, e.g. T332618.

Note that it's easy to turn off the feature for yourself – go to https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toiminnot:Asetukset#mw-prefsection-editing-discussion and uncheck "Ota käyttöön nopea aiheen lisäys" / "Enable quick topic adding". Is it really necessary to have different defaults when the users who need the old interface can just do that?

matmarex added a project: Editing-team (Kanban Board).Apr 13 2023, 5:44 PM
matmarex moved this task from Incoming to Blocked / Needs More Work on the Editing-team (Kanban Board) board.
Iniquity added a comment.EditedApr 14 2023, 7:42 AM
In T317375#8779969, @matmarex wrote:

@Iniquity I'll discuss with the team and get back to you next week. I have two things to say now:

Thanks!

Note that it's easy to turn off the feature for yourself – go to https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toiminnot:Asetukset#mw-prefsection-editing-discussion and uncheck "Ota käyttöön nopea aiheen lisäys" / "Enable quick topic adding". Is it really necessary to have different defaults when the users who need the old interface can just do that?

Yes I know that. But the community is very hostile to the new changes and is worried that the developers do not hear it. I offered them this feature. If there are no critical blockers, as above, I would enable them as they want. If blockers exist and this is impossible, then I will continue to discuss this with them.

• Whatamidoing-WMF added a comment.EditedApr 17 2023, 5:58 PM

There is also a built-in opt-out button that makes it easy for people to opt out.

See https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:DiscussionTools_New_Topic_tool_hint_2022_de.png

• Whatamidoing-WMF added a comment.Apr 18 2023, 4:38 PM

I've joined the conversation at fiwiki. I think this is do-able.

Nikerabbit subscribed.Apr 18 2023, 4:40 PM
gerritbot added a comment.May 5 2023, 12:14 AM

Change 915886 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@master] Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic tool

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/915886

gerritbot added a project: Patch-For-Review.May 5 2023, 12:14 AM
matmarex moved this task from Blocked / Needs More Work to Code Review on the Editing-team (Kanban Board) board.EditedMay 5 2023, 12:23 AM

This script would opt out users who are active (according to Special:ActiveUsers) and have at least 100 edits, unless they have already opted in by enabling the beta feature. Afterwards we can change the default for all users.

I think everyone on Editing-team is on board with that, and I hope the Finnish community will agree that this is a reasonable interpretation of "for newcomers only".

We can do a dry run (test the script without changing anyone's preferences) maybe next week, and assuming everything works as expected, schedule the real deployment date afterwards.

(Currently there are ~500 potentially affected users, although I haven't checked how many of them have already opted in – we'll learn that in the dry run. We'll save the list of changes made, just in case, although user preferences are considered private data, so I won't be able to share the list publicly.)

gerritbot added a comment.May 16 2023, 4:05 PM

Change 915886 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@master] Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic tool

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/915886

Maintenance_bot removed a project: Patch-For-Review.May 16 2023, 4:10 PM
matmarex added a comment.May 16 2023, 5:40 PM

I'll do a dry run today.

gerritbot added a comment.May 16 2023, 5:40 PM

Change 920237 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@wmf/1.41.0-wmf.8] Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic tool

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920237

gerritbot added a project: Patch-For-Review.May 16 2023, 5:40 PM

Change 920238 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@wmf/1.41.0-wmf.9] Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic tool

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920238

gerritbot added a comment.May 16 2023, 8:51 PM

Change 920237 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@wmf/1.41.0-wmf.8] Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic tool

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920237

Stashbot added a comment.May 16 2023, 8:52 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-16T20:52:19Z] <jdrewniak@deploy1002> Started scap: Backport for [[gerrit:920237|Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic tool (T317375)]]

Stashbot added a comment.May 16 2023, 8:53 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-16T20:53:49Z] <jdrewniak@deploy1002> jdrewniak and matmarex: Backport for [[gerrit:920237|Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic tool (T317375)]] synced to the testservers: mwdebug2001.codfw.wmnet, mwdebug2002.codfw.wmnet, mwdebug1001.eqiad.wmnet, mwdebug1002.eqiad.wmnet

Stashbot added a comment.May 16 2023, 8:59 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-16T20:59:37Z] <jdrewniak@deploy1002> Finished scap: Backport for [[gerrit:920237|Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic tool (T317375)]] (duration: 07m 18s)

matmarex mentioned this in T336819: Maintenance script designed for run.php <class> syntax cannot be executed in Wikimedia production.May 16 2023, 9:49 PM
In T317375#8856530, @matmarex wrote:

I'll do a dry run today.

Not done due to T336819: Maintenance script designed for run.php <class> syntax cannot be executed in Wikimedia production.

ReleaseTaggerBot added a project: MW-1.41-notes (1.41.0-wmf.10; 2023-05-23).May 16 2023, 11:01 PM
gerritbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 10:59 AM

Change 920668 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@master] Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibility

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920668

gerritbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 11:08 AM

Change 920582 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@wmf/1.41.0-wmf.8] Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibility

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920582

gerritbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 1:51 PM

Change 920582 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@wmf/1.41.0-wmf.8] Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibility

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920582

Stashbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 1:52 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-17T13:52:25Z] <taavi@deploy1002> Started scap: Backport for [[gerrit:920582|Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibility (T317375)]]

Stashbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 1:54 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-17T13:53:59Z] <taavi@deploy1002> matmarex and taavi: Backport for [[gerrit:920582|Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibility (T317375)]] synced to the testservers: mwdebug2001.codfw.wmnet, mwdebug1001.eqiad.wmnet, mwdebug2002.codfw.wmnet, mwdebug1002.eqiad.wmnet

Stashbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 1:59 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-17T13:59:50Z] <taavi@deploy1002> Finished scap: Backport for [[gerrit:920582|Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibility (T317375)]] (duration: 07m 24s)

ReleaseTaggerBot edited projects, added MW-1.41-notes (1.41.0-wmf.8; 2023-05-08); removed MW-1.41-notes (1.41.0-wmf.10; 2023-05-23).May 17 2023, 2:00 PM
gerritbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 2:47 PM

Change 920668 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@master] Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibility

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920668

ReleaseTaggerBot edited projects, added MW-1.41-notes (1.41.0-wmf.10; 2023-05-23); removed MW-1.41-notes (1.41.0-wmf.8; 2023-05-08).May 17 2023, 3:00 PM
matmarex added a comment.May 17 2023, 3:23 PM

Dry run done, output: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/P48336 (private)

"Would update 455 out of 489 users"

It looks like some bots would be affected, we should fix that.

gerritbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 3:33 PM

Change 920721 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@master] NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc.

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920721

gerritbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 3:54 PM

Change 920721 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@master] NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc.

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920721

gerritbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 5:44 PM

Change 920731 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@wmf/1.41.0-wmf.9] Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibility

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920731

gerritbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 5:44 PM

Change 920732 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@wmf/1.41.0-wmf.8] NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc.

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920732

gerritbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 5:45 PM

Change 920733 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@wmf/1.41.0-wmf.9] NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc.

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920733

gerritbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 8:07 PM

Change 920732 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@wmf/1.41.0-wmf.8] NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc.

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920732

Stashbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 8:17 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-17T20:17:29Z] <urbanecm@deploy1002> Started scap: Backport for [[gerrit:920784|GrowthExperiments: amend wrong wiki prefix for jbowiki (T308134)]], [[gerrit:920732|NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc. (T317375)]], [[gerrit:920386|Enable zebra ab test in hewiki (T335972)]]

Stashbot mentioned this in T308134: Deploy "add a link" to 9th round of wikis.May 17 2023, 8:17 PM
Stashbot mentioned this in T335972: Launch content separation (Zebra #9) A/B test.

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-17T20:19:04Z] <urbanecm@deploy1002> urbanecm and matmarex and ksarabia and sgimeno: Backport for [[gerrit:920784|GrowthExperiments: amend wrong wiki prefix for jbowiki (T308134)]], [[gerrit:920732|NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc. (T317375)]], [[gerrit:920386|Enable zebra ab test in hewiki (T335972)]] synced to the testservers: mwdebug2002.codfw.wmnet, mwdebug1001.eqiad.wmnet, mwdebug1002.eqiad.wmnet, mwdebug2001.codfw.

Stashbot added a comment.May 17 2023, 8:29 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-17T20:29:06Z] <urbanecm@deploy1002> Finished scap: Backport for [[gerrit:920784|GrowthExperiments: amend wrong wiki prefix for jbowiki (T308134)]], [[gerrit:920732|NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc. (T317375)]], [[gerrit:920386|Enable zebra ab test in hewiki (T335972)]] (duration: 11m 36s)

matmarex added a comment.May 17 2023, 8:33 PM

Second try dry run looks better: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/P48360 (private)

"Would update 444 out of 490 users"

ReleaseTaggerBot edited projects, added MW-1.41-notes (1.41.0-wmf.8; 2023-05-08); removed MW-1.41-notes (1.41.0-wmf.10; 2023-05-23).May 17 2023, 9:00 PM
gerritbot added a comment.May 24 2023, 12:50 PM

Change 922838 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[operations/mediawiki-config@master] Enable DiscussionTools newtopictool on fiwiki

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/922838

gerritbot added a comment.May 24 2023, 1:51 PM

Change 920238 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@wmf/1.41.0-wmf.9] Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic tool

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920238

gerritbot added a comment.May 24 2023, 1:51 PM

Change 920731 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@wmf/1.41.0-wmf.9] Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibility

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920731

gerritbot added a comment.May 24 2023, 1:51 PM

Change 920733 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@wmf/1.41.0-wmf.9] NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc.

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/920733

Stashbot added a comment.May 24 2023, 1:56 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-24T13:56:53Z] <urbanecm@deploy1002> Started scap: Backport for [[gerrit:922405|MultiPaneDialog: remove attribute hidden instead of class (T337256)]], [[gerrit:920238|Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic tool (T317375)]], [[gerrit:920731|Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibility (T317375)]], [[gerrit:920733|NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc. (T317375)]]

Stashbot mentioned this in T337256: Only first onboarding step is shown.May 24 2023, 1:56 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-24T13:58:27Z] <urbanecm@deploy1002> matmarex and urbanecm and sgimeno: Backport for [[gerrit:922405|MultiPaneDialog: remove attribute hidden instead of class (T337256)]], [[gerrit:920238|Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic tool (T317375)]], [[gerrit:920731|Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibility (T317375)]], [[gerrit:920733|NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc. (T317375)]] synced t

ReleaseTaggerBot edited projects, added MW-1.41-notes (1.41.0-wmf.9; 2023-05-15); removed MW-1.41-notes (1.41.0-wmf.8; 2023-05-08).May 24 2023, 2:00 PM
matmarex updated the task description. (Show Details)May 24 2023, 2:02 PM
gerritbot added a comment.May 24 2023, 2:05 PM

Change 922838 merged by jenkins-bot:

[operations/mediawiki-config@master] Enable DiscussionTools newtopictool on fiwiki

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/922838

Stashbot added a comment.May 24 2023, 2:06 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-24T14:06:14Z] <urbanecm@deploy1002> Finished scap: Backport for [[gerrit:922405|MultiPaneDialog: remove attribute hidden instead of class (T337256)]], [[gerrit:920238|Add maint script to opt out active users from the new topic tool (T317375)]], [[gerrit:920731|Define $maintClass in maintenance script for compatibility (T317375)]], [[gerrit:920733|NewTopicOptOutActiveUsers: Skip bot users etc. (T317375)]] (duration: 09m 21s)

Stashbot added a comment.May 24 2023, 2:06 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-24T14:06:49Z] <urbanecm@deploy1002> Started scap: Backport for [[gerrit:922838|Enable DiscussionTools newtopictool on fiwiki (T317375)]]

Stashbot added a comment.May 24 2023, 2:08 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-24T14:08:28Z] <urbanecm@deploy1002> urbanecm and matmarex: Backport for [[gerrit:922838|Enable DiscussionTools newtopictool on fiwiki (T317375)]] synced to the testservers: mwdebug1001.eqiad.wmnet, mwdebug2001.codfw.wmnet, mwdebug1002.eqiad.wmnet, mwdebug2002.codfw.wmnet

Maintenance_bot removed a project: Patch-For-Review.May 24 2023, 2:10 PM
Stashbot added a comment.May 24 2023, 2:19 PM

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2023-05-24T14:19:00Z] <urbanecm@deploy1002> Finished scap: Backport for [[gerrit:922838|Enable DiscussionTools newtopictool on fiwiki (T317375)]] (duration: 12m 11s)

matmarex moved this task from Code Review to Ready for Sign Off on the Editing-team (Kanban Board) board.May 24 2023, 2:23 PM

This is now done! The new topic tool is enabled by default on fiwiki.

Out of 488 senior users meeting the criteria 441 have been opted out. The remaining users were not opted out because: 14 were bots or system users, 28 had already opted in, and 5 had already opted out.

Log of preference changes made by the script (private): https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/P48502

If you don't like the setting you ended up with, you can change your preferences at https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toiminnot:Asetukset#mw-prefsection-editing-discussion.

Iniquity added a comment.May 27 2023, 1:48 PM

It is nice! Thanks! :)

ppelberg closed this task as Resolved.Jul 7 2023, 11:53 PM
ppelberg claimed this task.
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