Talk:Western barn owl
Latest comment: 9 days ago by UtherSRG in topic Proposed merge of Western barn owl into Barn owl
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 | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Barn owl was copied or moved into Western barn owl with this edit on 17 November 2024. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Eastern barn owl split off
editAs was discussed at the bird project[1], but not brought up here for some reason, some subspecies have been split off into an eastern barn owl species. It would seem this article needs some reworking, so pinging the FA nominator Cwmhiraeth, and Shyamal who brought it up. FunkMonk (talk) 09:16, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- Had a look at this again for the FAR list. It would still seem some updates about this split are warranted here, who recongises it and such. Also, it seems some unsourced text has been added since the FAC. FunkMonk (talk) 13:37, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- I have been keeping my eye on the article and see little addition of unsourced text. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 17:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- You've removed some, but there is still this sentence: "Other research tools include using GPS trackers fitted onto the barn owl allowing precise location tracking of the owl." FunkMonk (talk) 22:06, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- I have added a couple more references. I have just discovered that a student editor has been assigned the featured article Common starling as their article for improvement! Fortunately, they haven't done much yet ... Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- Looks good. Any update on who recognises the split of the Eastern barn owl or not? FunkMonk (talk) 12:03, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- That's not my region of interest. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:09, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- Ok, but I think the article needs some sort of update, as was brought up at the bird project a few years ago. I'll try to ping MeegsC and Jts1882 (who are currently discussing similar issues at the project talk) then. Do you think the proposed split of the subspecies is sufficiently reflected here? FunkMonk (talk) 12:17, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- All of the world's main taxonomic bodies are finally getting together to hammer out a common list — about darn time! Unfortunately, it's likely to take a while. Fortunately, once it's done, all these "who agrees with what" conversations will be relegated to the past! I'll see what I can find. MeegsC (talk) 13:47, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- So maybe it's premature to add anything to the current text? In that case, I'll mark it as satisfactory. FunkMonk (talk) 16:53, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- All of the world's main taxonomic bodies are finally getting together to hammer out a common list — about darn time! Unfortunately, it's likely to take a while. Fortunately, once it's done, all these "who agrees with what" conversations will be relegated to the past! I'll see what I can find. MeegsC (talk) 13:47, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- Ok, but I think the article needs some sort of update, as was brought up at the bird project a few years ago. I'll try to ping MeegsC and Jts1882 (who are currently discussing similar issues at the project talk) then. Do you think the proposed split of the subspecies is sufficiently reflected here? FunkMonk (talk) 12:17, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- That's not my region of interest. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:09, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- Looks good. Any update on who recognises the split of the Eastern barn owl or not? FunkMonk (talk) 12:03, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- I have added a couple more references. I have just discovered that a student editor has been assigned the featured article Common starling as their article for improvement! Fortunately, they haven't done much yet ... Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- You've removed some, but there is still this sentence: "Other research tools include using GPS trackers fitted onto the barn owl allowing precise location tracking of the owl." FunkMonk (talk) 22:06, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- I have been keeping my eye on the article and see little addition of unsourced text. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 17:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Reviewing this version: This article could use some attention:
- Maintenance tags: In the US, barn owls are listed as endangered species in seven Midwestern states,[which?]
- There are unformatted and incomplete citations, and bare URLs, indicating the article might not be well watched, samples only:
- https://www.ontario.ca/page/barn-owl-recovery-strategy
- "Endangered Ontario: Why barn owls have flown the coop in Ontario". TVO. 28 August 2017.
- http://files.ontario.ca/environment-and-energy/species-at-risk/286962.pdf
- "Owls of Canada". simplywildcanada.com.
- Jonesey95 could you find the sourcing? LittleJerry (talk) 23:48, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
Done. I'm not sure why my vast expertise was needed for this basic task, but I will AGF. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:14, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Jonesey95 could you find the sourcing? LittleJerry (talk) 23:48, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- There was MOS:SANDWICHing, which I attempted to address, but more significant is MOS:DONTHIDE and what to do with the large table in the "Taxonomy and etymology" section. (It could benefit from better image sizing, see example at White House Coronavirus Task Force.)
- Please review for WP:OVERLINKing, (webcam does not need to be linked twice in a few sentences, for example).
- Prose
- With seven instances of however, some prose attention may be warranted (see the top of my user page).
- Lots of clauses and complex modifiers in this run-on sentence: Of all raptorial birds, including unrelated groups such as accipitrids and falcons, if considered as a single global species, the barn owl is the second most widely distributed behind only the peregrine falcon (and perhaps having the second widest natural distribution of any land bird behind it as well) and wider-ranging than the also somewhat cosmopolitan osprey.
- Redundancy: perhaps fewer than two hundred individuals still remain ... (and we don't know what citation belongs to that clause, or what date applies)
- Tortured prose, sample: In some areas, it may be an insufficiency of suitable nesting sites that is the factor limiting barn owl numbers.
- Why does it have singular wing but plural tail feathers? except on the remiges and rectrices (main wing and tail feathers) ... switch from plural plural to singular plural
- WP:OVERLINK, examine whether every commonly known country needs linking.
These are only samples: I suggest this article could benefit from a GOCE visit and some tuning up of as of dates, sourcing, layout and citations. If these issues cannot be addressed, the article can be submitted to WP:FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:23, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Cwmhiraeth? LittleJerry (talk) 19:29, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia, I listed this at GOCE. LittleJerry (talk) 19:41, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- I've finished my GOCE copy edit. I've tried to address most of the prose concerns here. That does not include the WP:OVERLINK issue. Most of the language seemed attempts at precise and illustrative description, rather than descents into gobbledegook; but I have tried to heed the concerns here. Dhtwiki (talk) 08:26, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia, I listed this at GOCE. LittleJerry (talk) 19:41, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia, I think the major issues have been addressed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:06, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- On my list, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:57, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
LittleJerry, apologies for the delay as I took an extended wikibreak and am just now catching up.
I looked in here, intending to revisit my WP:URFA/2020 review, but I see that this Featured article is the subject of Wiki Ed (student) editing. @Ian (Wiki Ed) and Anonymouswisebird:, students are usually discouraged from editing featured articles. This addition is not at FA standard; whether anything there may need to be worked in to the article for it to maintain 1b comprehensive should be looked at, but would require higher quality sourcing and a rewrite. I see blog sourcing, and lots of prose and MOS corrections needed.
I can't keep every URFA/2020 article review watchlisted, so please ping me when I should revisit (after the university term ends). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:03, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia, the edit was reverted. I don't see any other major edits. LittleJerry (talk) 20:23, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
@LittleJerry and Jonesey95: my apologies again for taking so long to return to this.
- I was attempting to reduce the jargon in the lead, by moving the term phylogenetic out of the lead, and just state more simply instead that "There are at least three major ... " But when I went to look for how I could link phylogenetic in the body instead of the lead, I could not find any of this content from the lead mentioned in the body:
Perhaps I'm missing it? If not, can it be added to the body, cited, and then the jargon trimmed in the lead?Phylogenetic evidence shows that there are at least three major lineages of barn owl: one in Europe, western Asia, and Africa; one in southeastern Asia and Australasia; and one in the Americas; as well as some highly divergent taxa on various islands. Accordingly, some authorities divide barn owls into the western barn owl, for the group in Europe, western Asia, and Africa; the eastern barn owl for the group in southeastern Asia and Australasia; and the American barn owl for the group in the Americas. Some taxonomic authorities classify barn owls differently, recognising up to five separate species; and further research needs to be done to resolve the disparate taxonomies.
- "The shape of the tail is a means of distinguishing the barn owl from typical owls when seen in the air. " ... how?
- The article already states that it has a "short, squarish tail" which is presumably different from other owls. LittleJerry (talk) 13:15, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
- The table in Taxonomy has a lot of uncited text.
- Cite added. LittleJerry (talk) 00:27, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
Please ping me when I should revisit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:24, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia I believe that segment in the lede is supported here in the body.
Molecular analysis of mitochondrial DNA shows a separation of the species into two clades, an Old World alba and a New World furcata, but this study did not include T. a. delicatula, which the authors seem to have accepted as a separate species. Extensive genetic variation was found between the Indonesian T. a. stertens and other members of the alba clade, leading to the separation of stertens into Tyto javanica.
pinging Cwmhiraeth, Jimfbleak, FunkMonk and Shyamal LittleJerry (talk) 14:46, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I see … as a non-biologist, that was not something I could sort :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:53, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I believe this article was significantly expanded since FAC by someone other than the FAC nominator, so it's a bit hard to judge all the new content, as it was never reviewed. If the new content is problematic, it could perhaps be rolled back to its original FA version. FunkMonk (talk) 15:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- The main expansions were the updates on taxonomy. Perhaps we could remove the "nest box" section or reduce it to a couple of sentences/paragraph in "Conservation"? LittleJerry (talk) 15:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, I confused it with another of Cwmhiraeth's owl articles I reviewed once (Eurasian eagle-owl), it would seem that Cwmhiraeth should be able to solve the issues here if she's around? Maybe holiday? FunkMonk (talk) 16:04, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I've updated the IOC position on taxonomy in this edit Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:07, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, I confused it with another of Cwmhiraeth's owl articles I reviewed once (Eurasian eagle-owl), it would seem that Cwmhiraeth should be able to solve the issues here if she's around? Maybe holiday? FunkMonk (talk) 16:04, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia, finished. LittleJerry (talk) 14:27, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- The range map File:Combined distribution map of Tyto alba, Tyto furcata, Tyto javanica.png is unsourced. It doesn't match with the IUCN's 2016 map, in particular:
- Our map follows the national border between Egypt and Libya: I'm afraid owls don't respect borders :)
- Our map seems incorrect in the Sahara, in Central Africa, and in Saudi Arabia
- A455bcd9 (talk) 16:14, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
BhagyaMani? LittleJerry (talk) 00:25, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
Proposed merge of Western barn owl into Barn owl
edit- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- To change Barn owl to a DAB, moving relevant current material to Western barn owl, Barn-owl, Tyto or other pages; no consensus yet on whether Barn-owl or Tytonidae (or something else) is a better name for the relevant content, but that can be separately determined later. Klbrain (talk) 12:11, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Two articles about the same species UtherSRG (talk) 10:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- They're not the same; the former is about Tyto alba in its modern sense (restricted to Europe & Africa), the second is an outdated page following a former taxonomic concept of T. alba from when it still included the now-split species T. furcata (Americas) and T. javanica (Asia, Australasia); compare their maps and subspecies lists. It would make more sense to merge the outdated Barn owl page into the genus page Tyto, or with the (badly titled) "Barn-owl" page covering the entire family Tytonidae - MPF (talk) 20:19, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- I would accept either of those proposals. We should not have two articles using the same binomial and taxobox. - UtherSRG (talk) 10:50, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- @MPF: At the very least, the outdated concept's article should have the taxobox removed and the lede rewritten to indicate that it is no longer considered a valid species concept. - UtherSRG (talk) 10:56, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- @UtherSRG: Thanks! Thinking about it a bit, I'd say the Barn Owl page would be best changed into a simple disambiguation page similar to other now-split-up former species, like the Herring Gull page. The page's current content should be dispersed into the genus page Tyto or distributed among the sibling species as relevant.
- Some essential reading on the topic (not even cited at all on either of the pages!), which provides very strong support for the multiple-species treatment:
- Uva, V., et al. 2018. Comprehensive molecular phylogeny of barn owls and relatives (Family: Tytonidae), and their six major Pleistocene radiations. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 125: 127-137 (available via researchgate).
- As for the family page, that would be better renamed Tytonidae (currently a redirect), as not all of the species have 'Barn' in their name, particularly not the species in the genus Phodilus - MPF (talk) 11:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds like a plan! Make it so! :) - UtherSRG (talk) 11:44, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Ooof! Huge task!! The carve-outs will also need spellchecking (UK English for T. alba, US English for T. furcata, Australian/Indian English for T. javanica per MOS:TIES). Haven't got the time to do it all myself . . . MPF (talk) 23:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- You don't need to do it all. Just get started enough and folks will help out. :) - UtherSRG (talk) 10:53, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- Ooof! Huge task!! The carve-outs will also need spellchecking (UK English for T. alba, US English for T. furcata, Australian/Indian English for T. javanica per MOS:TIES). Haven't got the time to do it all myself . . . MPF (talk) 23:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- This is essentially what was proposed by @Loopy30 back in 2017 (discussion here). I personally think "Barn owl" has commonname advantages over Tytonidae but it's debatable. It looks like WP:Birds is badly backlogged on other page merges as well, so hopefully this discussion will help attract more editors to the topic. Unfortunate for an FA to get dissected this way but hopefully it will result in 3 FAs in the future :) —Rutebega (talk) 03:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds like a plan! Make it so! :) - UtherSRG (talk) 11:44, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
i personally think Barn owl should be made a disambiguation page, it would be easy and it'll guide anyone confused to the barn owl pages that are not outdated Chitosecre8 (talk) 15:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you are interested in contributing here, please read the above discussion and participate in the agreed direction. - UtherSRG (talk) 22:27, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Some notes on implementation: I've primarily implemented this, at least as a first go, by moving relevant content to Barn-owl and Western barn owl. There was a few decades worth of content forking, so there was significant duplication with subtle variation. Some of the content now at Barn-owl might be better at American barn owl or Eastern barn owl, but on balanced I thought it best in the broader article to serve as a comparison between the different species. However, I'm very happy for others to make a different decision. I had thought of switching the Barn-owl and Barn owl content, but attribution then would be even messier. There's quite a DAB job to do on links incoming to Barn owl. So, more work to do, but hopefully most readers won't be too startled by the current content. Klbrain (talk) 13:23, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- @@Klbrain, UtherSRG, and Chitosecre8: - the page "barn-owl" still needs to be moved to Tytonidae, as (a) it is wrongly hyphenated, we shouldn't have a family distinguished from a genus in it by whether it has a hyphen, and (b) the bay owls Phodilus are not called "barn owl" / "barn-owl" by anyone, so it is a misleading title - MPF (talk) 21:46, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- It looks like user:UtherSRG has done this now, and then switch the redirect to this DAB; that seems reasonable to me, although now there are a few (469) incomings links to that page to disambiguate. Many of them probably should be to Tytonidae, but perhaps not all. Klbrain (talk) 14:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yup, sorry, I saw this request and went to do it, then got distracted and for got to reply here. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:57, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
- It looks like user:UtherSRG has done this now, and then switch the redirect to this DAB; that seems reasonable to me, although now there are a few (469) incomings links to that page to disambiguate. Many of them probably should be to Tytonidae, but perhaps not all. Klbrain (talk) 14:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
- @@Klbrain, UtherSRG, and Chitosecre8: - the page "barn-owl" still needs to be moved to Tytonidae, as (a) it is wrongly hyphenated, we shouldn't have a family distinguished from a genus in it by whether it has a hyphen, and (b) the bay owls Phodilus are not called "barn owl" / "barn-owl" by anyone, so it is a misleading title - MPF (talk) 21:46, 21 November 2024 (UTC)