Talk:Lezgistan

Lezgistxa (talk) 16:40, 21 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Is this article about the irredentist concept or Sadval terrorist organisation? The Sadval flag has no place in this article. Its not about Sadval or their opinion or their views. The same thing applies to the so called North and South lezgistan, again a Sadval based view. There is a clear distinction between this irredentist concept and the Sadval organisation but this article mixed things up. I suggest the seperation between the two, so unsourced table and Sadval related information have no place here. Neftchi (talk) 19:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC) Тюрки не вмешивайтесь. 109.252.157.161 (talk) 20:40, 17 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Here below is what user Yerevenci posted in my talkpage. Neftchi (talk) 14:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

"I suggest the seperation between the two, so unsourced table and Sadval related information have no place here. Neftchi (talk) 19:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC)"

Neftchi, I also think that we should split this into two articles:

1. Lezgistan (historical concept) or Lezgistan (geographical concept) - about the hisotorical / geographical region called Lezgistan
2. Lezgistan (political concept) - about the political / irrendentist movement called Lezgistan

What you think?? I think this should be acceptable. --Yerevanci (talk) 23:26, 17 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

The fact that you have continuously attempted to add Lezgistan as an active separatist movement in Azerbaijan has deteriorated your reliability. Earlier in the List of active separatist movements in Europe you put forth unground sources which I reviewed extensively and then explained everything in the talkpage. Yet you neglected this all and it seems you have now moved on to this article. None of the sources actually support the term "Lezgistan" in the appropriate way of this article. Also what political concept are you talking about? Even the source in the article talks about how there is evidence that the Armenian secret service was behind the creation of Sadval terrorists. You never made an attempt to discuss your edits, you just changed the article without consensus. This is against regulations. Next the table of Russian and Azerbaijani regions is unsourced, the only source comes from Sadval. But this article is not about Sadval, and their flag doesnt belong here nor does any of their perspectives belong here. Neftchi (talk) 14:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Neftchi (talk) 14:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

So, I'm not going to argue the issue of List of active separatist movements in Europe here.

"Also what political concept are you talking about? About the irrendentist concept by Lezgin nationalists.

"Even the source in the article talks about how there is evidence that the Armenian secret service was behind the creation of Sadval terrorists." OK, good. Put it in the article. If you have neutral sources proving it, then do it.

"You never made an attempt to discuss your edits, you just changed the article without consensus." really? how can I discuss something with a person that thinks I'm a sock and delets everything I added, including noetral sourced information??

"Next the table of Russian and Azerbaijani regions is unsourced, the only source comes from Sadval. But this article is not about Sadval, and their flag doesnt belong here nor does any of their perspectives belong here." This article doesn't mean to be about Sadval, bur Sadval is a separatist organization claiming that, like PKK for Kurdistan.--Yerevanci (talk) 20:02, 20 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

You avoided discussions on this topic in List of active separatist movements in Europe article and I had to drag you into this discussion myself. So there is no excuse for your lack of dialogue. Despite the fact that I opened a section in the discussion page you still kept on editing the article according to your own opinion, see here. None of your edits are by consensus and yet you continue. This is completely against Wiki regulations and consider this your warning. I undid your unsourced work untill we can reach a consensus regarding the edits.

I want to know what Lezgin nationalists? All sources clearly point out that there is only 1 terrorist group, founded by Armenia, and this group didnt even have the support for their claims. Your map and Sadval table shows original research, this isnt allowed. Also it is Sadval terrorist organisation that claims the territories not to be confused with Lezgin nationalists. There is a clear distinction between the two. I also removed the table, I asked for a source and all you showed is a dead link. There is no source for this table and therefore no source for the map. We need academic sources, you know this very well. Neftchi (talk) 13:54, 21 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Funny how suddenly "Lezgi" based accounts pop up and start editing this page, an example is this new user who suspiciously supports everything Yerevenci mentioned. Neftchi (talk) 21:29, 21 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

OK. For a period of time I'll stop editing until a cinsensus is reached.

So here is a great neutral source.

James Minahan, Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: L-R, 2002

• p. 1084 - ...Never united as a single political entity, Lezginistan remains divided and, according to nationalists, forms the Kurakh, Kasumkent, Magaramkent, Akhty, Derbent and Dokuzpara Rayons of Dagestan in th Russian Federation, and the Kuba, Khachmaz, and Qusar (Gusar) Rayons of the Republic of Azerbaijan.
• p. 1084 - The Lezgin flag, the flag of the national movement, is a horizontal bicolor of green over blue bearing a black and white eagle againts a yellow and pale blue background within a centered white-outlined disk.

"Funny how suddenly "Lezgi" based accounts pop up and start editing this page, an example is this new user who suspiciously supports everything Yerevenci mentioned."

Are you blaming me for making a "Lezgi" account??? You know it's so easy to find out where is that account edits from.--Yerevanci (talk) 00:07, 22 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Does the fact that suddently Lezgi based accounts like Namik555 and Lezgistxa pop up not seem suspicious to you? Especially at the time when you are trying to push Lezgi related articles.

The table in the text is unsourced. The given souce is a dead link. So right now this table shows signs of original research and your map is based on that table, therefore making it unacceptable. For this reason I removed the table. And even your new source and the table conflict on the same issue. Your source only mentions 3 rayon in Azerbaijan while this table claims 10 rayons.

The flag is the Sadval flag made by Aliev Saumur in 1999, not the Lezgi flag. For the same reason you cant add the SANAM flag to Iranian Azerbaijan article, you cant add this flag to this article. The SANAM flag represents a political party. The same goes for Sadval, the flag represents a terrorist organization. The same applies to PKK flag, it represents a terrorist organisation and not Kurdistan as a political concept. So you can add the flag to Sadval article but not to Lezgistan.

This brings to attention another point I made earlier. There is a conflict in the article between Sadval opinion and the phrase Lezgistan. Neftchi (talk) 09:21, 22 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

"Does the fact that suddently Lezgi based accounts like Namik555 and Lezgistxa pop up not seem suspicious to you?" It does and what??? Ask any admin to check if they are connected to me by any way.

"The table in the text is unsourced. The given souce is a dead link." I know, because the website is broken now.

"So right now this table shows signs of original research and your map is based on that table, therefore making it unacceptable."

OK, I'll switch the table information with the source given by me. And on the map, I'll just erase the "Lezgin nationalist claims", so it would be a map showing the distribution of Lezgins in Dagestan and Azerbaijan. --Yerevanci (talk) 00:21, 23 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

The borders of your map have no source. In fact its based on map that Namik had earlier uploaded and added in this article. Both these maps show the same borders for Lezgistan but the map of Namik also showed the Armenian borders extending up til the Kur river. Your map is the same map by Namik only you show Lezgistan. This proofs that its based on Armenian perspective. I suggest to use a general of ethnic distrubution in Caucasus, see this map . This map is used in many articles regarding ethnic minorities in Caucasus and it should be used here aswell. You still havent answered my question what this article is really about? Is it about Sadval terrorist organisation or about the littoral region refered by some as Lezgistan? Because this topic cannot be about both, as you have seen its conflicting. Neftchi (talk) 09:52, 24 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

OK, I accept it. Now, I'm working on another map based on this:

• Ethnic map of Caucasus region, 2003 from A. Tsutsayev's Atlas of Ethnopolitical History of the Caucasus, Moscow, 2007 (АТЛАС ЭТНОПОЛИТИЧЕСКОЙ ИСТОРИИ КАВКАЗА, Цуциев А.А, Москва: Издательство «Европа», 2007)

This source gives a more detailed map. I'll finish it in coming days. --Yerevanci (talk) 13:26, 24 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

I clearly said this map which comes from a real institution the University of Texas Libraries. So you can adjust your map to that. Neftchi (talk) 14:23, 25 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

 

OK, here's my detailed Lezgin map based on this: Ethnic map of Caucasus region from A. Tsutsayev's Atlas of Ethnopolitical Hisotry of the Caucasus, Moscow, 2007 (АТЛАС ЭТНОПОЛИТИЧЕСКОЙ ИСТОРИИ КАВКАЗА, Цуциев А.А, Москва: Издательство «Европа», 2007)

I think it's better than the ethnic map of the Caucasus region, where you have to find where Lezgins are and also, this one is a closer look to the Dagestan-Azerbaijan border region. --Yerevanci (talk) 15:41, 25 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

That is not the map upon which we had agreed. With your graphical skills Im confident that you zoom in and can neutralize other colors. If you still cant do it, I'll do it for you. Neftchi (talk) 18:08, 25 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Per above I temporary removed your map. Also made several minor adjustement. Dagestan is not an independent state, therefore I replaced it with Russia. Lezgin national movement is wrong, its Sadval terrorist organisation. Neftchi (talk) 18:15, 25 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

1. I don't understand what's wrong with my map.

2. I gave a neutral source (UNHCR - United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees: http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/469f38d3c.html Minorities at Risk Project, Chronology for Lezgins in Russia, 2004) which clearly says:

The Lezgin National Movement, Sadval (Unity), forms and holds its founding congress in Derbent (in Southeast Dagestan, not far from the Azerbaijani border). They call for the unification of the Lezgin people (in Azerbaijan and Dagestan) because they had been "denied the opportunity to develop their culture" under Soviet rule.--Yerevanci (talk) 18:31, 25 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

What is there not to understand? Your map shows inconsistencies with a more reliable source. Why do you also mention Lezgic groups? It is unrelated to this topic and not even mentionted in the article. It needs to be strictly about Lezgin people not some pan-Lezgic movement. I added the general map showing the ethnic groups in the Caucasus. It is the most reliable map for the region. It also shows the entire region, not only border of Russia and Azerbaijan, because some people cant make up where that is located. Neftchi (talk) 14:15, 26 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

I don't think that a Russian ethnograph Tsutsiyev got something against Azeris or Lezgins. He is neutral and his map is based on official censuses and not on estimates like your "more reliable source". If the problem are Lezgic people, so don't say that it's not reliable or not neutral. It exactly shows where Lezgin people are living and is neutral and is reliable. Also, why can't we put both maps???--Yerevanci (talk) 23:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

This article already has more maps than text. I put the ethnic map in place, as that is the most used and most relevant map out there. I believe this is a simple matter and that there is no need to strech this discussion further. Neftchi (talk) 18:51, 28 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

OK, you add the Caucasus region ethnic map and I'll add the map I made. I don't think it's an issue. It is based on neutral source, so it could be placed here. No more arguing about maps.

The text - I'll revert it to your last edit, and undo all edits by Lezgistxa.--Yerevanci (talk) 01:37, 29 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

I invited Lezgistxa to this discussion as can be seen here. Yet he again disrupted this article [1]. This is now getting ridiculous. I also want to bring up copyright issues of the two maps in this article: [2] and [3] have false copyrights. The first map uploaded by previous war editing user Namik and the second map is uploaded by the new user Lezgistxa. The false copyrights in the maps are another example of POV pushing in this article and I dont believe I need to mention that false copyrights are not allowed in articles. The only map with legitimate copyright is [4]. Neftchi (talk) 10:26, 29 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

As can he seen in the recent edit by Lezgistxa he removed solid sourced information and pushes POV sources, among them Armenian sources. This shows not only POV pushing but also vandalism. My continues attempts to establish dialogue have all been neglected by this user. Neftchi (talk) 10:29, 29 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Regarding this edit. The distrubtion of Lezgin people must also take into account the distrubtion of Azerbaijani people, who form the majority in Derbend in Dagestan, Russia. This shows that both people live on both sides of the border. Just showing Lezgin people would be POV. A distribution of both Lezgins and Azerbaijanis would give the readers more neutral point of view. Neftchi (talk) 22:52, 8 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

Neftchi, I though you're a serious person. Can you tell me what is this article's title??? --Yerevanci (talk) 15:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

Buckshot, regarding this edit, the image Lezgi map2.jpg has a false copyright, you of all persons know that we cannot use false copyrighted image's in Wikipedia articles. The issue of districts was also settled with the source: James Minahan, Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: L-R, 2002

• p. 1084 - ...Never united as a single political entity, Lezginistan remains divided and, according to nationalists, forms the Kurakh, Kasumkent, Magaramkent, Akhty, Derbent and Dokuzpara Rayons of Dagestan in th Russian Federation, and the Kuba, Khachmaz, and Qusar (Gusar) Rayons of the Republic of Azerbaijan.

The edits by Lezgistxa are therefore ungrounded. In fact I invited him to participate in this talkpage but he neglected it [5]. Mursel (talk) 20:44, 26 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

The use of the word "terrorism" for an organization is not neutral. I changed it to separatist. If the organization is deemed as a "Terrorist", then it should be mentioned that nations X, Y,Z and organizatons X,Y,Z consider it a terrorist organization.--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 16:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

http://lezghinrights.org

http://flnka.ru/english/

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