Talk:Kashrut

See the discussion on the topic of this article at the talk page of related article, Talk:Halal § Animal rights topic categories. Rasnaboy (talk) 15:25, 8 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Why is the postion of the Seventh-day Adventists on breakfast cereals relevant to the lead of the page on Jewish dietary laws?

If no one objects, I'll remove it.

Hydromania (talk) 09:34, 21 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

I think the pareve foods section needs a rewrite. Below is the the section as it stands now followed by my proposed changes.

Some processes convert a meat or dairy product into a pareve (neither meat nor dairy) one. For example, rennet is sometimes made from stomach linings, yet is acceptable for making kosher cheese,^[1] but such cheeses might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese made from a vegetarian rennet. The same applies to kosher gelatin, an animal product, derived from kosher animal sources. Other gelatin-like products from non-animal sources such as agar agar and carrageenan are pareve by nature. Fish gelatin is derived from fish and is therefore (like all kosher fish products) pareve. Eggs are also considered pareve despite being an animal product.^[2] Bread is often prepared without dairy to be pareve^[3].

Kashrut has procedures by which equipment can be cleaned of its previous non-kosher use, but that might be inadequate for those with allergies, vegetarians, or adherents to other religious statutes. For example, dairy manufacturing equipment can be cleaned well enough that the rabbis grant pareve status to products manufactured with it. Nevertheless, someone with a strong allergic sensitivity to dairy products might still react to the dairy residue, and that is why some products that are legitimately pareve carry "milk" warnings.^[4]

A Pareve (or Parve) food is one which is neither meat nor dairy. Fish fall into this category, as well as any food which is not animal-derived.

Eggs are also considered pareve despite being an animal product.^[1]

Some processes convert a meat or dairy derived product into a pareve one. For example, rennet is sometimes made from stomach linings, yet is acceptable for making kosher cheese.^[2] but such cheeses might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese made from a vegetarian rennet. Gelatin derived from kosher animal sources (which were ritually slaughtered) are also pareve.^[3] Such cheese and gelatin might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese or gelatin made from a vegetarian sources.

Other gelatin-like products from non-animal sources such as agar agar and carrageenan are pareve by nature. Fish gelatin, like all kosher fish products, is pareve.

Jewish law generally requires that bread be kept parve (i.e., not kneaded with meat or dairy products, or made on meat or dairy equipment).^[4]

Kashrut has procedures by which equipment can be cleaned of its previous non-kosher or meat/dairy use, but those may be inadequate for vegetarians, those with allergies, or adherents to other religious statutes. For example, dairy manufacturing equipment can be cleaned well enough that the rabbis grant pareve status to products manufactured with it but someone with a strong allergic sensitivity to dairy products might still react to the dairy residue. That is why some products that are legitimately pareve carry "milk" warnings.^[5]

Hydromania (talk) 00:28, 8 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Hydromania: I'm basically fine with your proposal, which I think definitely improves the section. Using underline and strikeout, I made some edits:

• "considered" (my style, I guess)
• unacceptable to vegetarians—presumably applies to the gelatin issue, too, so I reordered a little, even though it separates meat-derived gelatin from vegetable-derived products. I added a paragraph break, but I don't feel strongly about that.
• "generally": Single-serving breads that are known generally to be dairy, say, are allowed by most authorities. That is why English muffins with dairy hechshers are allowed.

Decide how you'd like to address my proposed changes, then feel free to put it in the article (without the underlines and strikeouts). StevenJ81 (talk) 16:44, 8 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@StevenJ81:

• "considered" - I don't really like it. If Jewish law considers it pareve, then, for the purposes of this entry on Jewish dietary laws, it is parve. But I'll leave it in as the previous version had it too.
• you definitely improved it. But I think the entire part about vegetarians should be taken out. The parve article goes into it. And obviously kosher animal derived gelatin is not vegetarian.
• "generally" good catch

Hydromania (talk) 18:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

  Like Hydromania. --תנא קמא (talk) 22:37, 9 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I think that an extra section for the kashrut law of "Bateil BeShishim - One In Sixty parts" is needed. Here are some links that can be for help:

• The 1/60th Rule - Kosher - Chabad.org
• One in Sixty « It's Not Quite That Simple « Ohr Somayach
• Food Nullification: Foods - Practical Halacha
• When it's Null and Void: Understanding Batel BShishim (One-Sixtieth ...

Thanks and cheers. --תנא קמא (talk) 23:29, 9 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Hi there @תנא קמא: I personally believe the Wikipedia entry should focus on the general facets of the biblical commandment and the rabbinical additions, rather than the more specific laws of kosher. The 1/60 rule is just getting into details. Hydromania (talk) 06:46, 10 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Hydromania:, you tagged the Kashrut#Genetically_modified_foods section for clarification, as it mentions this law, and needs elaboration. --תנא קמא (talk) 13:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

@תנא קמא: The genetically modified foods section needs a rewrite. I haven't found any sources which explain both sides of the question. That specific part should probably just say something like 'it's kosher because the gene is a miniscule part of the fish, and the fish still resembles a kosher fish' as the OU says here and drop the 1/60 rule entirely Hydromania (talk) 22:02, 10 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

I would suggest reading the sources before deleting cited content. The sources discuss tobacco that is certified Kosher for Passover in Israel. This is because tobacco is considered to contain ingredients forbidden during Passover. Maybe there is a better article for this, but I don't know which that is. Maybe I can revise the content and move it to the Passover section. Cannabis issue same, not only for eating, but debate about whether it is a legume. Please do not make things up. Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 17:15, 12 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

It has nothing to do with kashruth of dietary, it has to do with chametz issues. I suggest you check your attitude. This article is on the dietary issues of kosher laws, not on chametz issues. Tobacco has no dietary issues and as such does not belong here. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:27, 12 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Of course certification is an issue for this article, not only a theoretical dispute that certification has expanded beyond what should be covered by kashrut. For this you have presented no supporting sources. To add such commentary would be valuable, if there are supporting sources. However, deletion is not appropriate here, Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 19:37, 12 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

I propose merging the page Kosher foods into this one.

• Kashrut applies to food. Kosher foods are foods which kashrut permits or prohibits. The subject is exactly the same.
• As written now, they both cover the same ground.
• I have not found any discussion on why there are two pages for the same subject.
• As the older more stable page (former FA, GA) Kashrut should be the surviving article
• The name can be discussed. Kashrut is more accurate, Kosher is more prevalent. However, note that this has been discussed many times previously here here here and hasn't been changed. Any new discussion should be after the merger.
• One argument to make is that the Kashrut page is too long and clunky. I agree to an extent, and believe that after we merge any useful information from kosher foods into this one we should work on spinning of some of the sections into subpages.

Hydromania (talk) 06:17, 17 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

• I don't know. Kosher foods is more about the various foods themselves, while this article is more about about the institution of how to certify them. There is a certain overlap between the two, but that is not yet a reason to merge. Another good reason not to merge is that both article are not that small, and a merged article would be quite large, see Wikipedia:Article size. Debresser (talk) 09:58, 17 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Kashrut article is not only foods, it includes manufacturing equipment and details not usually discussed in food articles. Only question is overlap with Jewish cuisine, but this will be controversial and some sources exist to say it does not have to be kosher cuisine to be Jewish.Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 19:11, 17 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Debresser: But it isn't really. That article is Hechsher. This one has more on the foods than it does on certification or philosophy. Hydromania (talk) 02:22, 21 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Yeah, this is a tough one. The Kosher foods article focuses more heavily on the foods themselves. It would make for a very long and unwieldy article. Slightly oppose. --FeldBum (talk) 14:12, 18 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

• It seemed to me when I looked that there was more than a little overlap. I'd favor merging. But if we're going to say "no" to this, I would strongly suggest that we try to define the boundary between the two articles, rationalize the content of each appropriately, and add hatnotes describing the difference. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:23, 20 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

• So no consensus (or no involvement?). I reiterate that it makes little sense to have two articles on the same subject. In regards to the "too large" argument, as noted in the start of this thread I sort of agree, but note that the entire kosher food article is not much longer than the laws of kashrut section on this page and most of the items there are discussed in that section already.

Otherwise we can go with StevenJ81's proposal. Hydromania (talk) 02:19, 21 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose. This issue decided above on April 7, 2018 request. Eschoryii (talk) 01:32, 27 March 2019 (UTC) One is a Jewish religion concept and the other an English word definition of food.Reply

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• כשרויות.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:37, 4 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

Prefaced that I live in an (often conservative) Ashkenazi community, I’ve never heard of this my whole life while I knew about the other rules before I turned ~7. Maybe I and most of the internet just missed something, but these are way too obscure to be in the same bullet-list as the others. As such, I’m adding (minor) next to them and wouldn’t be surprised if someone else demoted them to (obscure) at some point Makhnoboi19 (talk) 22:43, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

There are many organizations that claim some authority to certify foods as kosher. I think it would be useful for somebody to write at least a paragraph about the different organizations that do this. Are they recognized by different Jewish religious streams? Sometimes I see two kosher logos, but I do not remember ever seeing more than two. Pete unseth (talk) 17:51, 2 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

This is an extremely complicated subject that I think if we tried to tackle would have to be its own page. Re: different streams, yes, but there are multiple dimensions. Expensive ritual items like shmurah Matzah are likely to have many symbols. Some symbols are recognized by some denominations but not others, others are identified with a particular ethnic tradition, and a great many are strictly Orthodox but nonetheless understood to be untrustworthy. For example, Magen Tzedek is a Conservative Jewish symbol and not relied upon by Orthodox Jews. Badatz Beit Yosef is a Sephardic hechser, which is not relied upon by Ashkenazim in areas of known disagreement. Tablet-K has always been run by strictly Orthodox Jews but is banned by major Orthodox rabbinic authorities. Some Hasidic sects, such as Bobov, theoretically restrict adherents to their own in-house symbol. There's a lot of politics involved. The Chicago Rabbinical Council maintains a list of recommended symbols here. GordonGlottal (talk) 20:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

There is a linked article Hechsher which contains a list of major organizations. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 20:50, 2 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the tip about Hechsher. From there, I found a link to Kosher certification agency. That article covered the material I thought was helpful. Thanks! Pete unseth (talk) 22:58, 2 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

  This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 January 2023 and 21 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): LDantesinferno (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by LDantesinferno (talk) 18:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

Snails as food (escargot) I assume would not be Kosher but I'm not clear on this. 24.51.192.49 (talk) 08:20, 26 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

Snails are not kosher. See Unclean animal for more. GordonGlottal (talk) 23:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

One looks it up, the DAB page sends here, and then - nada. Arminden (talk) 10:16, 23 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Are all medicines accepted as kosher, or are there some that are not acceptable? Is this worth including in the article? Pete unseth (talk) 21:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

This article is quite extensive, but, applies only to one sect of Judaism. While the Ashkenazi thought within the Rabbinic sect is the largest and most referred-to, this is not the do-all-end-all of rules and regulations, especially for the discussion of kosher eating. This article expresses only ONE interpretation of the eating commandments in the Torah. Minor differences are inclusive of the comparison between Ashkenazi and Sephardic rules and several other larger differences between Ashkenazi and Karaite and other lesser forms of Jewish observance including Samaritans. This is not a complete and comprehensive reference for Kashrut. Rjcb3 (talk) 04:42, 18 July 2024 (UTC)Reply