Talk:South Shore Line

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I think this article should be have Chicago SouthShore & South Bend Railroad merged into it, not the other way around. The name of the rail line does not use CamelCase.

• Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District site

It appears the current freight company does in fact use camelcase, and the passenger line is the "South Shore Line", with no "Chicago South Shore & South Bend Railroad" any more. --SPUI (talk) 11:27, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Does the South Shore still stop at Ambridge? I recall it as a "signal stop" only, but I remember it stopping there in the early 90s (back when I took the train to work every day). --Mhking 00:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A map is now available at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:SouthShore.png, feel free to use it --JVittes 06:56, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great, I put it in there, feel free to adjust it. Craig R. Nielsen 07:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Referring to South Shore service as interurban streetcar service is simply incorrect.  The route may be the legacy route of the old interurban, but solely heavy-rail commuter trains are operate along it.  Today, this is a commuter rail service with a few streetside stops in Michigan City.  Calling it an interurban gives the impression that light-rail stock is used on this line and that is far from the case.  A distinction should be made between the description of the route as a legacy interurban route and a description of the trains actually operated along it.  This is not a streetcar, plain and simple.

The South Shore began as an interurban in the interurban era. It was not run as a "streetcar" line even back in the day. They have used heavy rail vehicles since at least the 1920's. It was called an interurban with self propelled heavy rail vehicles then. The description continues to be valid.  71.115.87.182 (talk) 04:55, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who wants to install infoboxes for all the station articles? ---- DanTD 21:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I remember trackage in the middle of Bendix Drive south of Lincolnway West (old US-20) in the early 1980s.  I can't seem to find when it was relocated to the east side. This page mentions 1975, but I remember it later (I was 4 in 1975).  Whether it was used at the time, I don't know, but it definitely shifted from the east side of Bendix to the middle.  There is a remnant of the street running visible on Google Maps' satellite - a disconnected stretch is visible cutting between Bendix and Westmoor Street immediately northwest of their intersection and immediately southeast of the current track (41.68487,-86.29356 ; if you use Acme Mapper, you can switch over to "Topo" and see the setup exactly as I remember it at Bendix/LWW). Mapsax (talk) 00:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC) Added View using Live Search Maps "Bird's Eye" view Mapsax (talk) 21:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC) Also added Last but not least, Google Maps Street View Mapsax (talk) 22:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

look at the map.  instead of the track going straight to the airport, the track curves around and then comes into the airport from the east.  Also, I have heard old timers say that the south shore used to go all the way to Notre Dame.  Anyone have more info on either of these topics?  If so, please post.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.95.242 (talk) 12:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This set of pages mentions Notre Dame. Mapsax (talk) 19:45, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The South Shore itself did not run to Notre Dame. The passengers brought into town transferred to streetcar lines that served the campus. The streetcars are now long gone (replaced by bus service). A local coach service is now used to transfer passengers from the train to the stadium for "Notre Dame" trains. (A separate company has proposed using an abandoned rail line for Notre Dame service but the current owner of the abandonment has refused to sell the line.) Also, the line to the airport does wrap around and approach from the east. This was to use an old freight line that served a few industries south of the airport off of Bendix and was intended to serve the industrial park north of the airport. NICTD and the airport intend to move the station to the west side and provide a more direct link, saving several minutes off of the trip. 71.115.87.182 (talk) 04:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

rolling stock? Patcat88 (talk) 11:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Added ... at least for the passenger carrying equipment. NICTD also owns one GP38? diesel engine and a lot of rail maintenance equipment which isn't documented well enough to reference. Hopefully that also satisfies the expansion request. 71.115.84.208 (talk) 17:49, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Should Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District really direct to this page? I don't believe it should be since this page is about the South Shore Line itself, not the current operator. It seems to me as if NICTD should have its own page specifically discussing it, in the same way that Chicago 'L' and Chicago Transit Authority are separate. NICTD is only the current owner and is seems as though this page should be focused on the history and current operation of the line rather than the funding mechanism and the agency that runs it.

Anyone agree? Lost on belmont (talk) 02:02, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The question is, does NICTD have any real purpose or notability other than its funding and operation of the South Shore Line? Or, to put it another way, does NICTD do anything other that run the South Shore? As far as I can tell, the answer is no. And since the South Shore is the extent of NICTD's operations, having them be covered in the same article makes sense to me. oknazevad (talk) 18:09, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm wondering, do we really need the (NICTD) disambiguator at the end of the title of this article? Looking at the disambiguation page currently at South Shore Line, there's only four uses, one of which is a fairly obscure use for the Braintree branch of the Red Line (MBTA), and one is the freight operator for the same trackage, which is already linked here and has a totally different title, and one is here. Seems to me, based on WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, that the non-disambiguated title (South Shore Line) should point here, while the disambiguation page is moved to South Shore Line (disambiguation), with a hatnote reading something like This article is about the Indiana commuter rail line. For othr uses see South Shore Line (disambiguation).

Thoughts?oknazevad (talk) 18:09, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't a disambiguator for NICTD. It is for NICD which is a redirect to this page. NICD can also stand for National Institute of Communicable Diseases. Lost on Belmont (talk) 20:09, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is totally not what I was referring to. At all. I was talking about the (NICTD) in the title, not the hatnote.  oknazevad (talk) 00:32, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just found another South Shore Railway in Quebec, that's somehow connected to the Central Vermont Railway and Grand Trunk Railway. It's not a South Shore Line but it's too close for comfort for me. ----DanTD (talk) 01:42, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's so obscure that it has absolutely no bearing on this being the clear primary topic associated with the term "South Shore Line". It's easily covered by a link to the disambiguation page. Plus it's title isn't the exact same, so no parenthetical would be needed. (The are meant only to be used when the titles are otherwise the exact same, not just "close".)oknazevad (talk) 03:07, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree completely and think we need to re-open the move request. With respect to DanTD, when 99% of people are looking for the South Shore Line, this is the article they want to find. We shouldn't be disambiguating based on a hypothetical article that isn't even written and doesn't even have the same name. The article on the Red Line doesn't even use the term "South Shore" until way into the History section, and then without substantiation. This isn't even close. Mackensen (talk) 23:42, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

{{Infobox rail line  | name        = South Shore Line  | color       =  | logo        =  | logo_width  = 145px  | logo_alt    =  | image       = SouthShore.png  | image_width = 250px  | image_alt   = South Shore line  | caption     =  | type        = Interurban  | system      =  | status      = Operational  | locale      = Chicago, IL to South Bend, IN  | start       = Millennium Station  | end         = South Bend Airport  | stations    = 20  | routes      = 1  | ridership   =  | open        = 1903  | close       =  | owner       =  | operator    = NICTD  | character   =  | depot       =  | stock       =  | linelength  =   | tracklength =   | notrack     =  | gauge       = 1,435 mm (4 ft 8+1⁄2 in) standard gauge  | old gauge   =  | minradius   =  | racksystem  =  | route number=  | el          = Overhead catenary  | speed       =   | elevation   =  | website     = nictd.com  | map         =

Legend

0 mi Millennium Station 0.8 mi 1.3 km Van Buren Street 1.4 mi 2.3 km Museum Campus/11th Street IC West Line to Addison Amtrak to Union Station 2.7 mi 4.3 km McCormick Place (events only) 51st–53rd Street (Hyde Park) Metra trains only 7.0 mi 11.3 km 57th Street Chicago "L" Jackson Park branch 7.9 mi 12.7 km 63rd Street Metra Electric to South Chicago Calumet to Chicago Kensington/115th Street Metra trains only Red to Howard (planned) Metra Electric to University Park & Blue Island 130th (planned) I-94 Bishop Ford Freeway Calumet River 19.0 mi 30.6 km Hegewisch Illinois Indiana West Lake Corridor (2025) 20.8 mi 33.5 km Hammond Gateway maintenance and storage facility Hammond Grand Calumet River South Hammond I-80 / I-94 Little Calumet River Munster Ridge Road Munster/Dyer Main Street Grand Calumet River 23.4 mi 37.7 km East Chicago Indiana Harbor and Ship Canal Grand Calumet River Branch 28.0 mi 45.1 km Gary/Chicago Airport Calumet to Valparaiso Ambridge 30.9 mi 49.7 km Gary Metro Center Indiana Toll Road 34.7 mi 55.8 km Miller 38.9 mi 62.6 km Portage/Ogden Dunes Portage Burns Waterway Bailly Dune Acres 46.0 mi 74 km Dune Park Tremont Kemil Road 50.4 mi 81.1 km Beverly Shores Willard Avenue Amtrak to Chicago to Pontiac, Port Huron 55.8 mi 89.8 km 11th Street 57.5 mi 92.5 km Carroll Avenue Carroll Avenue Yard and Shops Trail Creek Amtrak to Chicago to Grand Rapids I-94 Galena River LaLumiere Indiana Toll Road Rolling Prairie 74.6 mi 120.1 km Hudson Lake Central Time Eastern Time CSB&NI to Michigan City New Carlisle CSB&NI Ry to South Bend 90.1 mi 145 km South Bend Airport Amtrak to Chicago Union Station South Bend Amtrak to New York City, Boston & Washington, D.C. South Bend St. Joseph River South Bend Terminal Yard

Key South Shore Line West Lake Corridor Metra Electric District

This diagram: view talk edit

 | map_state   = collapsed }} I'm wondering if {{Infobox rail line}} would be better than the one currently in use. It has the option to contain the map (as opposed to the second box we have to have now&emdash;which looks rather crude) and has many useful parameters. Didn't want to do a sudden switch lest someone freak out and revert, so I'm offering it up here. Thoughts? Lost on Belmont (talk) 14:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like an improvement to me. I saw go for it. oknazevad (talk) 15:04, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I like it too. I'm with Oknazevad on this one. ----DanTD (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Lost on Belmont (talk) 19:21, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that in 2009–2010 the ridership on the South Shore Line was approximately 300,000 passengers/month^[1][2][3] or 3.6 million passengers per year. 

67.86.74.107 (talk) 03:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One web source has "3.9 million passengers (down 7.1%). (NICTD)" for 2009. ^[1] The source is noted as NICTD. 71.115.6.75 (talk) 07:30, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm thinking on placing Metra into the "System" section in the infobox. Are Metra and the SSL in the same system? Cause there is a Metra template in the article. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOPFan300 22:00, 22 October 2011 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fairlyoddparents1234 (talk • contribs)

No, the South Shore Line is not owned by Metra, so the inclusion would be incorrect (and has been reverted). The South Shore does use the Millennium Station terminal, which is part of Metra's Electric District, but it's via a trackage rights agreement, not because it's the same system. 

Also, as an FYI, new comments/questions go on the bottom of the page. And it looks like your signature got a bit messed up. oknazevad (talk) 16:11, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Changes were made to the page placing Dune Park in Porter instead of Portage. In the comments for the change it was noted that NICTD refers to the location of Dune Park as Chesterton. This location was dismissed without reference.

NICTD's General Offices are located at the Dune Park station and an address for that station are provided on the NICTD website.^[1] That address can be verified via the US Post Office website as: N IN COMMUTER TRANSP 33 E US HIGHWAY 12 CHESTERTON IN 46304-3521

I believe the references provided here should clear up the issue. Dune Park is located in Chesterton. 50.102.174.30 (talk) 00:51, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone create an s-rail set for an "old" version of the South Shore? Earlier today I added this article on the downtown South Bend station and proceeded to create an s-rail services box for both this station and for 53rd Street which both saw the loss of South Shore service before NICTD and, by extension, the airport terminal and the name "Millennium Station." I got as far as adding "South Shore Line|CSS&SB" to Template:S-rail/lines before realizing I didn't know what the next steps were. Nothing would need to be different for this set than the standard "NICTD" set except for pointing to the downtown South Bend terminal and using the name "Randolph Street." Aside from these two stations, this would come in handy for a number of other potential pre-1970 stations. Lost on  Belmont ^3200N_1000W  (talk) 19:15, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There was never a passenger station here, but there was an electrical substation. KirksKeyKard (talk) 16:15, 6 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure where your comment comes from, but there was a station at Lydick. The platform was at Quince Road. The station opened prior to 1909 and closed between 1960 and the 1980s (prior to NICTD). Lost on  Belmont ^3200N_1000W  (talk) 01:28, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I stand corrected. Please can you provide a source for this information. This station (now abandoned) can then be added to the list, and the edit reverted by Mackensen can stand. Thank you. - KirksKeyKard (talk) 10:40, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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In the early 90s when the South Shore was awaiting new cars, bilevels and F40PHs were borrowed from RTA to be landed to the South Shore due to overcrowding. I think this should at least have a little blurb in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nstrainmaster (talk • contribs) 14:35, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is no longer a ticketing agent at NICTD's East Chicago Station. See article:

http://www.nwitimes.com/business/local/south-shore-s-east-chicago-ticket-office-closing-as-electronic/article_2ca02b6c-7e91-5a7e-b668-eb321ca300df.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.208.29.20 (talk) 20:04, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks; I updated East Chicago station. Mackensen (talk) 02:35, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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We have two modules for stations: Module:adjacent stations/NICTD and Module:adjacent stations/Chicago South Shore and South Bend Railroad. The former is essentially for stations that are/were NICTD stations and the latter for those that weren’t. The question is, when did a station become an NICTD station?

In working to create an article for Tremont, I believe I’ve found some situations where this distinction is unclear. NICTD was formed in 1977 to subsidize the CSS&SB passenger service and bought it outright in 1992. However, in 1981, the arrangement between the two changed when NICTD became the purchaser of service from CSS&SB, similar to the arrangement with Metra and BNSF or C&NW/UP. Since the NICTD effectively owned the passenger service at this point, would we consider any stations still open after this point NICTD stations? Lost on  Belmont  ^3200N_1000W  (talk) 23:24, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The date we've used up until now is 1990; that is, after the Venago bankruptcy when NICTD takes direct ownership. I think that still makes sense from a historical context; the real shift in ownership/operation is then, not when the subsidy becomes a purchase of service agreement. Are there significant shifts in operations between 1981-1990? Mackensen (talk) 03:26, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can’t (yet) say how significant the shifts is operation may have been, but according to this article by 1982, NICTD was setting fares and controlling the service levels for the line. Additionally, the construction of Dune Park was based on a study by NICTD and the Northwestern Indiana Regional Planning Commission. NICTD was the one making the decisions on closing and opening stations, not the railroad itself. Lost on  Belmont  ^3200N_1000W  (talk) 05:49, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since this is a related article, I thought I'd post this here for more eyes. There's a merge proposal at Talk:Chicago South Shore and South Bend Railroad#Merger proposal over merging The Chicago Lake Shore and South Bend Railway into Chicago South Shore and South Bend Railroad. Lost on  Belmont  ^3200N_1000W  (talk) 17:00, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since the beginning of the double-track project (which has now concluded), the SSL no longer runs in the street. It is historically important, so perhaps it should be moved further down the article, but I think something more reflective of the current SSL service should be in the main infobox. Perhaps a photo of a train sitting in the terminal at Millennium Station? 38.124.64.203 (talk) 02:57, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that a new pic is a good idea. I'd rather a pic somewhere along the line's unique trackage than Millennium Station, if only to show the line's unique identity. oknazevad (talk) 19:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with oknazevad. Ideally a daylight shot--somewhere in the Indiana dunes perhaps? Mackensen (talk) 20:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone better describe the 1998-1999 double-tracking near the Portage/Ogden Dunes station as described in this railfan.net page?

"The station at Ogden Dunes has grown from being a simple flag stop to being a major station on the South Shore line. The line past Ogden Dunes was double tracked during a construction project in 1998-1999. A new low boarding platform was constructed along the north side of the former single track and a second track was added to the south of the former single track."

Which was the original single-track? Was it Track 1 (south) or Track 2 (north)? And when they say "the line past Ogden Dunes" do they mean east or west of the station? I've been looking for maps or diagrams of the original track set-up at the station prior to the 1998-1999 project, but can't find anything helpful. Criticalthinker (talk) 22:40, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After studying this a bit more, the northern track east and west of the station (current Track 2) is the "new" trackage, and the southern track (current Track 1) is the original single-track section that continued all the way through. AT the station, they wanted to shift the parking (in a larger lot) to the north side of the station, so the old single-track at either end of the station was severed at both ends and connected to the new northern track, so that this track is now part of the current Track 2. A new track was built to the south of the old single-track at the station, and this became a new section of the current Track 1, and connected at each end to the old Track 1 east and west of the station.

I'm sure there is a better way to describe this. And quite frankly, a color-coded map would be very helpful on both this article and the Portage/Ogden Dunes station article, to more clearly show this. Criticalthinker (talk) 06:13, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the South Shore trains only stop there for special events, it doesn't quite seem appropriate to list it with the regular stops. On the other hand, the service during those special events was enough that I didn't just remove it myself. 2601:244:200:2680:F48F:57E:2303:E53E (talk) 01:13, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning towards no. "Events only" is sufficient. No need to remove it entirely until all trains bypass the stop at all times, regardless of events. Hotdog with ketchup (talk) 02:18, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since the newest schedule revision in late August, all trains do skip McCormick Place. Now would be a good a time as any to remove it from the list. 2601:249:8D00:3260:0:0:0:B63E (talk) 21:38, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Stations should never be removed from the list. If a station is no longer current, it should remain, but be noted as such, preferably with service dates. In this instance, it’s unclear if the station remains a stop for special events (and the schedule just shows regularly scheduled service) or if NICTD has pulled out of it entirely. Get a reliable source saying that the South Shore no longer stops there at all, and change the station's status in the list with the ref, otherwise, keep it as it is for the time being. Lost on  Belmont  ^3200N_1000W  (talk) 17:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]