Talk:Loganberry

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- Removed last paragraph -

The last paragraph (claiming the drink has no loganberry juice) was false, as the drink bottled in Buffalo lists "Natural loganberry juice" in the ingredients.

The last 2 paragraphs clearly contradict, or are at the very least unclear. The penultimate paragraph states that a "common use" is Loganbery Juice derived drinks, popular in Southern Ontario and New York. The final paragraph then states (rather bitterly, I might add) that Loganberry Drinks contain no Loganberry juice as ingredients. 82.69.37.32 00:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I removed:

Some of the seeds produced the Mammoth Blackberry, the longest berry.

as it was confusing and not in context with the rest of the article. I would be happy to put it back in if anyone has any more information on "Mammoth Blackberries," though. Berdidaine 15:39, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

source: Memoirs, Horticultural Society of New York (1902)

"Hybridism vs. Selection" edited by F. W. Burbidge

"Notes on California Plant Breeding", E. J. Wickson [1]

The Loganberry and the Mammoth blackberry are the only plants of any value that I have originated.

In August, 1881, I planted the seed of the common wild blackberry, or dewberry, of California, botanically known as the Rubus ursinus, gathered from plants on one side of which was growing a kind of evergreen blaclcberry known as the Texas Early, and on the other side of which was growing an old variety of red raspberry. The Texas Early has a growth of cane and leaves similar to the Lawton, although much less vigorous, and in our mild climate is growing winter and summer. It has a small round berry of more acidity than the Lawton and probably of poorer flavor. The raspberry referred to has been growing in this place for the last forty years, and; I am unable to ascertain what variety it is, although it is of a type similar to the Red Antwerp. It is not, however, the Red Antwerp as we have been growing it here. From this seed there grew about one hundred plants.

In the summer of l883 these fruited and there appeared one plant which was undoubtedly a cross between the raspberry and the R. ursinus. The fruit was larger and earlier than the raspberry or any blackberry, except the ursinus, ripening about the middle of May; the appearance of the berry on the surface was something like the raspberry, being less indented and of more even surface than a blackberry; the color a bright glowing red, becoming very dark and finally, when dead ripe, of a dull purplish-red color. The berry has a core like the blackberry and parts from the calyx the same as a blackberry. The leaves of the vine are almost identical with the wild Rubus, being somewhat larger. The canes are also like the wild Rubus. but larger and more vigorous; it has the same small, sharp spines, and, like it, is without adventitious root buds, but multiplies from the stolons or tips and from seed. The fruit, when cooked, has the same rich acidity as the wild Rubus, there being only a suggestion of the taste of the raspberry in the cooked fruit, but in the jelly there is a more decided raspberry flavor. This red berry is universally known here as the Loganberry. It is an enormous grower and bearer, there having been gathered in this city full twenty-five pounds of fruit from one plant in one season. In Southern California it is fast displacing all other blackberries.

The other plants produced at this time, being crosses between the ursinus and the Texas, also developed into an entirely new type of blackberry, most of them of good quality; equally good for canning and jams as the Loganberry or the wild Rubus. and almost as early in ripening.

Since 1881 I have planted a good many seeds of this Rubus ursinus fertilized with the Texas Early. About twelve years ago there appeared among these seedlings—and it is uncertain from what year's planting it came—a remarkable blackberry. The canes are enormous. I have a plant now growing in my grounds which grew one cane or stalk last year. for this year's fruiting, of one hundred and forty-nine feet of fruit wood. This single plant will cover with foliage a wall forty feet long and from six to eight feet wide. The fruit is equally colossal: berries are frequently found two and one-half inches long. The fruit is similar to that of the wild Rubus, being less sharply acid, and when perfectly ripe is sweet and delicious. This berry I have named the "Maninioth." Its fruit is similar to the Loganberry. but less acid. The Mammoth fruits perhaps a couple of weeks later than the Loganberry, and is jet black in color.

The raspberry parent of the Loganberry is, like most raspberries, prone to spread from adventitious rootbuds; the Texas Early is also a perfect nuisance in that respect. The Rubus ursinus has no adventitious rootbuds, but propagates entirely from the tip. And it is a singular fact that, in the thousands of seedlings of the Loganberry and of the crosses between the Texas and the ursinus and crosses between plants thus crossed, not a single plant has been found that had adventitious rootbuds, but. like the female ursinus parent, all reproduce from the tips or seed. As is well known, the raspberry has a perfect bi-sexual flower. The Rubus ursinus, sexually, is divided into the male and the female. Such a thing as a bisexual flower in the Rubus ursinus is unknown, and it is a characteristic of that plant, growing wild in the woods, while the cane of the male plant is very much smaller and apparently less vigorous than the female, the male ultimately speads in rich soil and completely chokes out the female plants so that in a few years the berry patches become entirely. barren, being constituted entirely of male plants. It is very noticeable n cases where the \voods have been burned over: for the first few years, the burned district will produce many blackberries; in a few years, however, the productive berries entirely disappear and the male berry takes entire possession.

The flowers of the seedlings which I have grown have been mostly bisexual and very large. I never yet have seen a flower of the Loganberry or of any of its seedlings that was not bi-sexual and perfect. Very many, however, of the crosses between the ursinus and the Texas are uni-sexual female, but I never yet have seen a flower of any of my seedling plants that was uni-sexual male, like the ursinus produces.

My experience with the hybridizing of the Loganberry and the Mammoth blackberry with each other and other fruits, has resulted in some very interesting, and, in many cases, peculiar horticultural productions. The seedlings of the Loganberry, having been propagated in this State by the thousand, very many of them by myself, have as far as I know, resulted in the reproduction of the Loganberry type only; I never yet have heard of on of these seedlings returning to either a raspberry or a blackberry. The fruit of these seedlings is always the same red color, the same general flavor, and the vines have the same general appearance; but, as in the case of all seedling plants, the fruit of ninety-nine out of a hundred plants is not equal, in any respect to the original, in fact they are mostly worthless.

I have made many crosses of the Loganberry with my seedlings of the Texas and the ursinus. No. 1 is a cross of the Logan with a pistillate product of the Texas and ursinus; No. 1 is a cross of the Logan with the wild ursinus; No. 3 is a cross of the Logan with the Mammoth; No. 4 is a cross of a pistillate product of the Texas and the ursinus with the ursinus.

The result of all these crosses has been a most peculiar failure. Not a single one has been prolific, although in most instances the blossoms have both pistils and stamens perfectly developed in the same flower. A few have been pistillate (uni-sexual female). Not a single one has been uni-sexual male. It would be supposed that such flowers would produce fruit, but they are utterly barren. Out of hundreds of plants I have not found a single perfect berry and very few imperfect ones. These hybrids, while perfect and valuable as producers of fruit, and constant in reproducing them selves, seemingly refuse to be a party to any more crosses.

J. H. LOGAN. Santa Cruz, Cal

--ClemMcGann 16:22, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This article claims the boysenberry is a dew x logan cross. However the boysenberry claims it's a raspberry x black berry x loganberry cross. I'm guessing this article is correct since you can't really have a 3 way cross (it would be e.g. a logan x (raspberry x blackberry) cross) Nil Einne 08:56, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article was referenced on 2005-09-18 in Bufalo Rising in "Loganberry Lore" by Queenseyes. The author wondered if the info was dated, not having seen any loganberry juice except "PJ's, which I belive is bottled down in Florida." On 2007-01-09 a reader responded that Aunt Rosies loganberry drink was sold in Tops supermarket in Buffalo. The quoted portion of this aricle included "Logan Heights" which has since been edited out as an error.--Hjal 08:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Perhaps this paper could be used to provide more information in this article. MP ^{(talk•contribs)} 20:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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