Talk:Hilary Rosen/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Hilary Rosen. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

I did some light cleanup but the article is still a bit off. It seems weirdly one-sided, without even a pro forma response from Rosen's camp. MilesMoney (talk) 03:55, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Careful. By all sources I read, Rosen is still at SKDK. As has been explained in the past, reliable sources still characterize her as a lobbyist. --HectorMoffet (talk) 07:45, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

There's one source in the article that accuses her of still being a lobbyist. I'm fine with mentioning that source, since we attribute the opinion to its authors. That's different from using their claim as an unattributed fact, especially in the lede. I believe that calling her a lobbyist when she denies it is risking a WP:BLP violation. Please revert. MilesMoney (talk) 07:51, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Google shows that there are lots of RSes that still refer to subject as a "lobbyist". On the other side, do we even have a RS saying the subject actually denies lobbying? --HectorMoffet (talk) 08:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Rosen herself denies it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bbb23#Hilary_Rosen_is_not_a_.22Lobbyist.22. MilesMoney (talk) 08:33, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

To clarify, the subject of the article denies it and pointed out that she is not listed in a database of registered lobbyists. Obviously if the subject of an article takes issue with information presented that should have our attention per WP:BLP, but the subject of a biography does not get veto authority over sourced article content, and we should reflect the best information available from reliable, secondary sources. That said, if this has not already been at WP:BLP/N I think it is a good candidate; the more experienced eyes on this the better. VQuakr (talk) 08:58, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

To echo VQ, a talk page post isn't a RS. --HectorMoffet (talk) 09:38, 5 December 2013 (UTC) (That said, I've made a few edits to make sure we're not using the term 'lobbyist' in an unnecessarily prominent way HectorMoffet (talk) 10:45, 5 December 2013 (UTC))

The talk page links to reliable sources and shows that she is not literally a lobbyist. Rather, some are of the opinion that she unofficially acts as one. We should definitely include this opinion, suitably attributed, but it would be a huge WP:BLP violation for us to call her a lobbying currently in WP's voice. If you disagree, I suggest that you escalate to dispute resolution. MilesMoney (talk) 02:47, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

This issue was independently discussed on an admin's talk page, and three out of four opinions concur with what VQ and others have said-- The Nation is a Reliable Source, but we don't have any RSes denying the term lobbyist. More in a second --HectorMoffet (talk) 13:40, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

2013 sources for Lobbyist

• "Democratic lobbyist and consultant Hilary Rosen"
• http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/02/13/Wash-Post-Hires-Democrat-Activist-Lobbyist-for-Editorial-Pages "Washington Post Hires Lobbyist Hilary Rosen"
• "American lobbyist and Democratic pundit"
• "lobbyist Hillary Rosen"

These are all from 2013 sources. RSes agree-- she's a lobbyist. ---HectorMoffet (talk) 13:51, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I was asked to offer a third opinion regarding some BLP concerns in this article. As far as I can tell, multiple sources refer to the subject as a lobbyist. Denials on a Wikipedia user's talk page by an anonymous user claiming to be her do not factor into this at all. We require reliable, published sources as has already been stated. Absent evidence to the contrary, there is no BLP violation here. - MrX 15:32, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Hector asked me to comment here. I think we can assume that the account Hilaryrosen belongs to the subject, but if that becomes a signficant issue, it could be corroborated through WP:OTRS. But for the purpose of this discussion, it strikes me as largely irrelevant. How the article is worded should comply with normal policies and guidelines for articles and for BLP articles in particular. For example, if a person is an actor but hasn't acted in a few years, we don't say he was an actor in the lead. The body of the article can elaborate on what he did and when he did it, but unless he officially retires from acting and that is supported by reliable sources, he "is" an actor. Hilary may prefer that the article be crafted differently, but her preferences in this area don't trump our content rules. It might be different if this were some sort of privacy/sensitivity issue, and we could omit something from the article that isn't important but the subject objects to (e.g., WP:BLPPRIVACY), but the characterization of her as a lobbyist doesn't fall into that category. This has been an ongoing problem with the article and with her, and, as you can see, has been discussed before. To her credit, she did not attempt to change the article but came to my talk page. She should really be coming here but she probably got more attention there. I'm glad the discussion is now here because that's, of course, where it belongs. Unless something has changed since the last time this was discussed - I haven't look at the issue - then we should not honor her request. If she has reliable sources for making changes to the body to flesh out her noteworthy activities, those should be considered.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:39, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that "lobbyist" has a very specific legal meaning. Lobbyists are required to register, and Rosen is not registered as a lobbyist, so if we say (in WP's voice) that she is lobbying or is an unregistered lobbyist, we are guilty of defamation. That's precisely what WP:BLP does not allow, so we must not ever do this.

What it does allow is for us to repeat the claims of reliable sources as attributed opinions, not as WP-endorsed facts. This includes section headings. MilesMoney (talk) 06:48, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Here, I looked this up:

Does a lobbyist have to be registered?

Since 1995, the Lobbying Disclosure Act (LDA) has required individuals who are paid for lobbying at the federal level to register with the Secretary of the Senate and the Clerk of the House. Lobbying firms, self-employed lobbyists and organizations employing lobbyists must file regular reports of lobbying activity.

If we call her an unpaid lobbyist, we are accusing her of a crime, which violates WP:BLPCRIME. MilesMoney (talk) 06:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That is a bizarre misinterpretation of policy.--MONGO 16:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Here are the three best sources for making this claim:

• April 2012, The Nation which calls her: “a Democratic lobbyist”. (The Telegraph book review is interesting, but only infers it. Perhaps the book is more explicit.
• Michelle's To-Do List, Newsweek, November 19, 2012, | Michele Cottle: “top Democratic lobbyist Hilary Rosen”.
• New York Times, November 15, 2013 writes: “Hilary Rosen, a longtime Democratic lobbyist”

FYI. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:30, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You're confusing two things. One is whether she is known for having historically been a lobbyist. She is. The other is whether she is currently a lobbyist. She is not. If she were, then she'd be violating the law, and if we want to claim that in WP's voice, we need a conviction, not just an accusation. In any case, this is already being discussed on WP:BLPN, so let's not repeat ourselves. MilesMoney (talk) 19:57, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You are wrong. These are all recent descriptions regarding her current activities of last 18 odd months; one is three weeks old. None say "former". If she's such a hotshot publicist, she should be able to get her denials she currently is a lobbyist in the papers and thus get it in this article. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:05, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't know how to be any clearer. Identifying her as a lobbyist is not the same thing as saying she is currently lobbying. She is best known as a lobbyist, but that aspect of her career is over. If you believe otherwise, call the police and inform on her. MilesMoney (talk) 20:23, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

In addition to the best source Carol found, I really want to focus us on JQInternational which listed her as an honoree less than a month ago. This is a source 100% friendly to Rosen, Rosen poses for pictures with the award, and the official bio describes her as.. "American lobbyist", and even quotes The Nation story about "unregistered lobbying firm".

Rosen has been the victim of cyber harassment since her RIAA days, and I get a distinct feeling that we're being trolled here, and someone at 4chan or EncyclopediaDramatic is laughing their hineys off.

Are we really buying the story that there's a PR expert who can't even get highly-friendly sources to get the facts right? A PR expert who doesn't know how to print a denial, demand a retraction, or give us at least one RS? No way.

Not that it matters, of course. We follow the reliable sources, not "sources" we find on wikipedia talk pages. HectorMoffet (talk) 22:23, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

First, you do realize JQInternational is not WP:RS for third parties since it is an advocacy group. (Exceptions might be if she published a blog with factoids about herself or did an interview there.)

What I don't understand is where you want to use this? In the lead?

Probably after "Rosen left the Brunswick Group, joining the PR firm SKDKnickerbocker in 2010.[12]" where you can say something like "The Nation has described her as an effective lobbyist, even though she isn't registered as one. (Nation ref). And other sources still describe Rosen as a lobbyist."(2 other refs). The other sources really aren't strong enough to support the debate or much more.

Whether or not to put "though some still consider her a lobbyist" in the lead is something I won't bother to debate, if that's what you want to do. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 23:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, I didn't suggest inclusion of JQInternational, I just used it to illustrate, here on talk, just how widespread it is to characterize the subject as a lobbyist, to the extent that even friendly/promotional source from Nov 2013 describe her as a lobbyist.

The sources you dug up are undoubtedly the ones to be used in the article itself. ---HectorMoffet (talk) 00:13, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Just noticed and commented on this at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Hilary_Rosen. FYI. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have left a brief notice here about this. MilesMoney (talk) 19:57, 7 December 2013 (UTC)