Talk:Baila Esta Cumbia

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to employ WP:NCCAPS a particular way in this case, per the discussion below. Separately, please note that WP:NCCAPS states: If the French expression is untranslated (not a loan word), follow French capitalization practice.... for many works of art the capitalization practice can be derived from the original publication, e.g. the capitalization of the title of a French novel can usually be derived from how it was published. For Spanish, German, and any language usually written in the Latin alphabet the same (or something similar) would apply, so the guidance of WP:NCCAPS here remains unclear and/or contradictory; I suggest that further discussion of the guideline be pursued on its talk page. Dekimasuよ! 22:35, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Baila esta cumbia → Baila Esta Cumbia – The article is a song title and therefore would need be capitalized to "Baila Esta Cumbia". --Relisted. Dekimasuよ! 03:53, 26 October 2014 (UTC) .jona^talk 16:39, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose - see quality hardback Latin music books. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:10, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• These high-quality publications such as Billboard magazine, Billboard Books, Encyclopedia of Latino Popular Culture, and the official music sheet does not spelled the song title as "Baila esta cumbia". Best, .jona^talk 18:41, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per sources listed above. Erick (talk) 14:30, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, since I speak Spanish and know that only the first word is capitalized in titles (See [1], [2], [3]. This really is not even a matter of debate, just basic Spanish grammar. That said, there needs to be consistency in this regard in the body of the article as well.--Esprit15d • talk •

contribs 13:02, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is not the Spanish Wikipedia however. Erick (talk) 14:35, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - It is unnecessary. In its current state, as stated by the above editors, the title is technically correct. -- Ventric (talk) 06:40, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In its native Spanish grammar, it would be correct. However, this goes against WP:NCCAPS which states that capitalization found on reliable English-language sources should be used for foreign-language works. See below Erick (talk) 20:31, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Although everyone seems to be aiming to leave the article's title as is, my reasoning on moving this page is due in part to the high-quality reliable sources that does not go by the Spanish customs. Also, the major reason why the article should be moved is because the the official cover single does not use the Spanish customs, and this is issued from EMI Latin. So therefore, the article should be renamed to go by what EMI Latin issued the single and its parent album's covers. Best, .jona^talk 21:07, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Also WP:NCCAPS states that "If the article is about a work in a foreign language (such as a book or other written work, movie, album, or song), using the capitalization found in most English-language reliable sources is recommended. Debates about whether a foreign-language should follow its native capitalization or not have been around for years. Case in point, there was a debate whether or not an Italian-language film should its native capitalization or capitalization found in most English-language sources and the latter was favored. When a MOS for foreign-language having to use its native capitalization exists I will recant my support. EDIT: Another thing to point out is that the track listing for Ven Conmigo has the song spelled as "Baila Esta Cumbia". Erick (talk) 14:35, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Given that both capitalizations appear in reliable English sources, and both could be acceptable by the naming conventions, most participants favor the proposed version. Cúchullain ^t/c 15:25, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Baila esta cumbia → Baila Esta Cumbia – Last month, a move request was made for this article to be moved to "Baila Esta Cumbia" because that's how it is written on most English-language reliable sources. However it was opposed by several users who insisted that its native capitalization be used. The article was moved to "Baila esta cumbia" in 2012 by a user who has not heavily contributed to this article. The debate whether Latin foreign-language should use its native capitalization or not has often been brought up and in most cases, the usage of capitalization found on English-language reliable sources has been favored. Per last move request, I brought this up at the talk page for WP:NCCAPS, but the discussion has stalled. Usually, the guidelines at WP:CAPM used in favor of Latin foreign-language works of art to use its native capitalization and sometimes WP:ALBUMCAPS. These two projects prefer using native capitalization for foreign-language works of art. The Latin music project, however, is not of them. Several weeks ago, the active members of the project voted unanimously to utilize capitalization of Spanish- and Portuguese-language recordings found on reliable English-language sources. The active members of the project have always favored this method as opposed to following native capitalization of the other languages. Going back to NCCAPS, proponents of native capitalization point out the guideline about French expression being untranslated because its a borrowed loan word. However, it also states that "If the article is about a work in a foreign language (such as a book or other written work, movie, album, or song), using the capitalization found in most English-language reliable sources is recommended". Reliable sources such as Allmusic, the Los Angeles Times, the Sun-Sentinel, and Billboard Books, this encyclopedia has the song written as "Baila Esta Cumbia" not "Baila esta cumbia". Besides it makes no sense for this song to be forced to use its native capitalization when the other songs such Enamorada de Ti (song) and No Quiero Saber (a GA) from its parent albums aren't using them. So it would confusing from a reader's point of view. This is not a classical composition, this is a popular Latin song that was recorded in the US so for this article to be forced to use its native capitalization is nonsense. --Relisted. Dekimasuよ! 21:10, 8 December 2014 (UTC) Erick (talk) 18:20, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - as previous RM, above with same rationale "see quality hardback Latin music books" - in particular in this case Vargas Dissonant Divas in Chicana Music 2012 "Baila esta cumbia", Ilan Stavans Latin Music Genres and Themes 2014 "Baila esta cumbia". Of course that is cherry-picking, avoiding Colin Larkin's Guiness MOS and other books (not even going to consider Billboard as a MOS which should be followed), but the point as, as previous RM, this is a MOS choice, if I had seen the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Latin music I would have !voted differently from the five Users who voted. And even then those five votes do not help in this discussion because "Baila esta cumbia" is divided in reliable sources, because different publishers have different MOS. I prefer the style of hardback books like Frances Aparicio's Listening to Salsa: e.g. "the way that Willie Colon portrayed women in his song "Cuando fuiste mujer," and they all saw the patriarchal tenets of El Gran Combo's "Asi son" as a problematic.." (p.204). This is a preference, perhaps its familiarity with the way we do classical songs on WP, but I prefer specialist hardback books to low-MOS but otherwise reliable pop publications which mimic Billboard's Caps Everywhere Are Great Style. That's nothing against the Rough Guide to Cuban Music MOS, or Colin Larkin's Guiness/Virgin MOS style, just prefer hardback specialist book MOS. It's that simple and since MOS in sources differ, preference is all that's left. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:36, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, somewhat related, what concerns me more is the abominable repeating of titles with different caps in lead such as Ai Se Eu Te Pego having the lead:

"Ai Se Eu Te Pego" (stylized as "Ai, se eu te pego!") is a 2008 Brazilian song..

What on earth is that "stylized as" talking about? Crazy Caps For Latin Songs is livable, just, providing they aren't classic/folk songs, but this "stylized as" nonsense in leads as above or vice versa "Ai se eu te pego" (stylized as "Ai, Se Eu Te Pego!") is ridiculous. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:45, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) And the user who heavily contributed this article preferred to use other English-language reliable sources. In addition to the above sources, I also found four more books such as "baila+esta+cumbia"&hl=en&sa=X&ei=889vVK37A4WoNtKPhPgF&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22baila%20esta%20cumbia%22&f=false Tejano Proud: Tex-Mex Music in the Twentieth Century of which it points that's how the record label who owned this label has it spelled. The Encyclopedia of Popular Music by Colin Larkin (pg. 2733) also has it spelled "Baila Esta Cumbia" and does "baila+esta+cumbia"&hl=en&sa=X&ei=29BvVNPfBsmngwSB54CYBg&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=%22baila%20esta%20cumbia%22&f=false Selena's Secret: The Revealing Story Behind Her Tragic Death and The World Music CD Listener's Guide by Howard J. Blumenthal (pg. 204). I would also like to point that the all but two of voters who supported the guideline are native Spanish speakers. And as I mentioned, why would this article be left as "Baila esta cumbia" yet other songs from its parent Ven Conmigo such as Enamorada de Ti and No Quiero Saber wouldn't? That would be confusing from the reader's point of view. Allmusic is also a highly reliable source per the Music project guidelines even if it is not a book. This song is another example of what is called American Spanish which has been brought up on requested moves such as this. Erick (talk) 00:06, 22 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is the same issue, a MOS choice. We can choose to follow an Allmusic html MOS, or choose to follow a hardback book MOS. There is no such thing as a "reliable source" for MOS, only for content, spelling, facts. Yes native Spanish speakers editing on en.wp adjust to en.wp environment and follow English song titling practice, that's fine, English-speaking editors on es.wp do the reverse. But the issue remain a MOS choice. To me Billboard titles look like chart listings not book content, they look like Billboard Spanglish in fact. Spanglish is acceptable for cod-Spanish English language songs, but to take a tango or bolero and Billboardize it is, to me, ungainly. Could we perhaps have a situation where titles are Billboard Spanglished, but lead sentences take a more calm follow-the-original approach?? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@In inctu oculi: I agree with you that using Billboard as a source for capitalization is iffy because they don't even following the correct grammar for English-language capitalization, but not once have I actually mentioned Billboard in my comments. The only sources I have mentioned so far are books (just as you have) and the popular press like the Los Angeles Times and Sun-Sentinel. If this were a classical composition, I would have completely agreed with you from the beginning and drop the subject altogether. But that's not what we have here. What we have here is a popular Latin song which was record by a Tejano singer (Texans of Mexican descent) rather than an actual Latin American song and was later covered as "Baila Esta Kumbia" by another Tex-Man group. Given the recordings were done by Mexican-Americans, I would personally say that reliable sources from the American media would take precedent over Latin American media. Erick (talk) 00:32, 22 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Support – The article itself capitalizes the song title (throughout the article) as per your suggested move. The majority of English-language sources seem to support it as well. A sidenote about "stylized as" notes in opening sentences of articles: it's a common practice, especially if you take a look at some of the Japanese songs with English/Latin-script names that have articles (some use all-lowercase, others use all-caps, and some just go nuts with stylized Latin text). In any case, this article should maintain consistency with other Wikipedia articles for songs that have foreign-language titles, especially Spanish-language ones. I'm inclined to agree with Erick's rationale. --V2Blast (talk) 08:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Support so long as WP:UE is still policy. Red Slash 23:49, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • But Baila esta cumbia is not English. That would be "Dance this Cumbia". —  AjaxSmack  03:14, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I am a strong supporter of WP:UE and believe that if a foreign language title is used in an otherwise English context that English orthography rules should naturally be applied. Think of songs like La Isla Bonita by Madonna or C'est la Vie by B*Witched which are English-language songs by singers who normally sing in English released on albums in English. However, for songs that are not English by singers who don't always sing in English released with accompanying media in other languages (e.g. CD covers), we can't really say that these are "English" titles. In these cases, we should apply a standard based on what we normally do in similar cases. This can be seen in guidelines such as WikiProject Classical's WP:CAPM: "For titles in their original foreign language, the style used is 'sentence capitalization'. That is, the title is capitalized as it would be in a sentence in that language.") and WP:NCCAPS: Capitalization of expressions borrowed from other languages. Examples of this in practice include ¿A quién le importa? by Thalía et al. and C'est la vie by Khaled. The case in question here, a song by an American released in the US but on a Spanish-language album for a Spanish-speaking audience, seems to bridge this gap to some degree and a relevant WikiProject recently came out opposing using Spanish orthography (see WP:WikiProject Latin music: Guidelines). Good luck deciding. —  AjaxSmack  03:14, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@AjaxSmack: With all due respect, that section from WP:NCCAPS is only talking about foreign-language expressions itself. There's a section below about what to do with titles of foreign-language works of art which resulted from this discussion a few weeks ago. Erick (talk) 05:58, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User:Magiciandude: Thanks for the update. I am glad that this is being addressed on a wider level. I have questions about the new guideline that I have addressed here. —  AjaxSmack  04:47, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've left a note at the Latin music WikiProject noting that discussions there don't result in guidelines, too. Dekimasuよ! 03:44, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Relisting: it is good to see the new guideline developing as the result of the discussions here, but in order to determine the consensus of this move request, more input on the questions raised by AjaxSmack at WT:NCCAPS#Problems with the syntax of the new guideline seems necessary. Dekimasuよ! 21:10, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Dekimasu: My main concern right now though is that the article title currently goes against WP:NAME due to the capitalization found on most of the English-language sources used on this article. WP:NAME says that article titles should be based on what sources say and the section WP:UE deals with foreign-language titles. Erick (talk) 21:27, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Then it seems like there is also some clarification needed in the new guideline's "the capitalization found in English-language reliable sources is recommended, but when such sources use different capitalizations..." in order to indicate what is meant by "when such sources use different capitalizations," since it has been shown here that at least some reliable sources in English do use other capitalizations. At any rate, in my view this discussion hasn't yet established consensus for a move in the current case, and that's probably why it has been left in the WP:RMB. Maybe a bump to the top of the list again will help. Dekimasuよ! 21:44, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Erick (talk) 22:18, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - Perhaps we should be concerned on how we search for foreign-language titles. In this case, I would rather type lowercased words and phrases in search boxes. Meanwhile, I would type this message elegantly and use capitalization properly. Policies like WP:NAME encourage English names and capitalizations on non-English titles, but they do not discourage de-capping foreign-language titles of non-English works online. I found sources not using the proposed title:[4][5][6][7][8]. One of them uses "Baila esta Cumbia". Many other sources use capitalized variation. I won't put good-faith on these sources that demean Spanish language in their own ways. And I won't take sources that use the song's name trivially so seriously. Is the song notable as "Baila Esta Cumbia" or "Baila esta cumbia"? You decide. --George Ho (talk) 06:25, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@George Ho: And the contributor of this article chose to use capitalization found on other English-language sources used on this article. Like I said before, why would this article use its native capitalization when its parent album and other songs from it doesn't? This article was moved in 2012 by an editor who has not made any significant contribution to this article in any way. Also perhaps you would interested in joining the above discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (capitalization)? And as mentioned by V2Blast, most sources (including the ones I posted above) uses "Baila Esta Cumbia" as opposed to "Baila esta cumbia". Erick (talk) 15:47, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You mean the cover art that says "BAILA ESTA CUMBIA" or the songwriter's original drafts—inaccessible though—or something like that? --George Ho (talk) 18:14, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I mean most of the English-language sources referenced on this article and the ones I listed above my replies to Iio. Erick (talk) 18:21, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPOV applies also as a policy for titles, right? What about WP:RS and WP:N? --George Ho (talk) 19:24, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

According to EMI's official website (note you have to type in 'Selena') they capitalize every first word of each song title of Selena's songs. Who is Wikipedia to say that we have to use "Baila esta cumbia" because it is a Spanish-language title? This is a song owned by EMI Records who doesn't abide to that rule. So I support the move per EMI/Capitol's use of capitalization of their song titles. Best, .jona^talk 19:52, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As far as "who is Wikipedia to say," we have had that answer for a while: WP:UCRN ("Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources."). Dekimasuよ! 21:05, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Well yes. Both the books and online sources I have used comply with the two policies. Plus Allmusic (which is accepted as a reliable source by the Music project has listed as "Baila Esta Cumbia on its parent album and on one of the reviews. Erick (talk) 19:55, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Use English-language capitalization conventions for the English Wikipedia. We have our own MOS, and should look to external sources only for information, not style decisions. --BDD (talk) 16:02, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.