Talk:Albanians in Greece

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved

We have here a large amount of text, but actually a clear consensus. Most of the discussion has been about the appropriate treatment of the Arvanites. SilentResident initially opposed the move on this basis but subsequently amended her !vote to support. Othon I initially indicated that they did not disagree with the move, then switched to oppose on the basis of supporting SilentResident's alt proposal of Greek communities of Albanian origin, then switched to conditional support following SilentResident's change of position. Only one editor remains as opposing, namely Khirurg, who opposes on the basis that "Arvanites do not identify as "Albanian"," i.e. reiterating the point made by SilentResident which she now accepts was tangential to this RM (and which happily appears to be resolved).

On the other hand, we have 7 or 8 editors who now support the move (discounting Lorik17's second !vote), depending on whether Othon I's conditional support is counted. I am unclear whether Super Ψ Dro's restructure has satisfied Othon I, although it has satisfied SilentResident, who writes "I am glad we have come to a fruitful outcome". I share that view and am happy to find there is now consensus to move. (non-admin closure) Havelock Jones (talk) 10:19, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Albanian communities in Greece → Albanians in Greece – Consistency. See Albanians in Montenegro, Albanians in North Macedonia, Albanians in Turkey, Albanians in Serbia and many other examples. And this goes beyond articles referring to other ethnic groups. Also, this is the only article in the whole of Wikipedia that uses "Albanian communities in" instead of "Albanians in". Proposed title is also shorter and simpler. Super Ψ Dro 19:18, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the proposal. Lorik17 (talk) 21:09, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I do not disagree with the naming per se because it is a matter of consistency but first, you should know the context behind the naming of this article. This has been created back in the day by the user ZjarriRhethues and expanded by the user Resnjari as a complementary article to the already existing Albanian immigrants in Greece in order to present the historic communities and not any minority, Arvanites are not considered a minority for example. Probably a decision should be made about what should be done with the other article as well, and how to present communities that do not consider themselves Albanian as "Albanians in Greece". Then I will consent for the naming Othon I (talk) 09:44, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Arvanites are not the primary issue here and the proposed title doesn't really affect them in any way, their inclusion in the article can be a matter discussed separately. Also, I believe this article and Albanian immigrants in Greece should be merged. The minority or not minority issue can also be discussed separately. Super Ψ Dro 19:05, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I agree as well with the renaming. Ahmet Q. (talk) 10:39, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: The Page Move's OP, states that this is the only article in the whole of Wikipedia that uses "Albanian communities in" instead of "Albanians in" and that's correct, but for a good reason: the Arvanites are a community of Albanian origin that doesn't view themselves as Albanians. As one can see here, utmost caution is required with the page move here as to avoid WP:POV-flagging as Albanians those communities of Albanian origin that view themselves differently from Albanians nowadays. So far, Wikipedia has been careful as to not baptize every people of Albanian origin as Albanian people, and the same attention is required here: in the event the page move is completed, the Arvanites will have to be removed from the article. Going on with the page move without removing the content for which the new title no longer reflects upon, then this will be a serious violation of Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy. Aware myself about how many disputes there have been in the WP:BALKANS topic area and the growing impatience of the Admins, who banned quite a few editors from the Balkan topic area the last couple of years, everyone here should be careful as to not ignore any concerns by other editors regarding the POV issues stemming from the page move if they do not wish for this to end up at the AE. Personally I am not against the page move, as long as the content in the article is updated to reflect on the new title considering that the proposed title is not as inclusive as the previous one. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 11:56, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And even if the Arvanites does not view themselves as Albanians, nevertheless, their ancestors were Albanians and of course they belong to the article as well as other Albanian communities, who populated Greece at different periods, whether you like it or not. The subsection with the name "linguistic and cultural communities", as it currently is, is appropriate for the Arvanites and the other communities who "does not" view themselves as Albanians. The efforts of certain Greek users to hide facts is becoming a real problem here. It's really time to pull together and improve these articles.--Lorik17 (talk) 14:44, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Iaof2017: please avoid commenting on editor nationalities, that's inappropriate. And none is trying to "hide facts" here as you claim. However, I can't say the same is true about the editors in the Albania topic area whose edits or moves are coincidentally(?) promoting the nationalist views as expressed by far-right nationalist political circles in Albania, that what the Arvanites may think of themselves doesnt matter, are still Albanians who simply were brainwashed by the Greeks. I don't even want to think about this nationalist crap getting its way into Wikipedia. Not even half of it. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:07, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Again, the Arvanites are not the main issue here. Their inclusion in the article is a matter that should be discussed separately. And anyway, I don't see the issue with us having to remove content because we change the title from "Albanian communities" to "Albanians". If whether the Arvanites are Albanians or not is the issue, doesn't this title already call them Albanians? By the way, I am not knowledgable on this issue, but I see the subsection of the Arvanites under a section called "Linguistic and cultural communities" perfectly fine. Regardless of the "Albanian communities in Greece" or "Albanians in Greece". Maybe some changes are necessary, I don't know that, but removing all the information about the Arvanites from this article is not appropriate. Super Ψ Dro 19:05, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, it is the matter, because labeling them as Albanians in Greece imply that they are a minority, and of course this is endorsement of Albanian nationalistic POV and it does not belong here in WP. If the articles get renamed, changes should be done to the content related to the Arvanites or info related to them should not be included. Othon I (talk) 19:52, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The title currently is "Albanian communities in Greece" though. In a way, the Arvanites are already being implied to be Albanians, changing the title to "Albanians in Greece" won't make much difference. Super Ψ Dro 20:02, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not exactly. Communities in Greece may have been historically Albanian but are not defining themselves as Albanian. That's why the previous title was more inclusive than your proposed title. You want to move the article? Fine, do it. But the article had a reason to be named differently than the articles about Albanians in other countries, and it is your capacity and duty as an editor who is proposing the move, to understand what exactly the difference between the old and the new title, is. No matter if there is consensus or not to move the article, the content will have to reflect on it, as the Arvanites, a historically Albanian community, simply don't view themselves as Albanians in Greece. They view themselves as Greeks in Greece. Wikipedia reflects on sources and facts, not editorial opinions on the matter. Simple. Now, aside from this, I hope I didn't gave you the impression that I am against your page move proposal, because, I don't see any other POV problems with it. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 04:04, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comment, I understand more your viewpoint. I however only see the Arvanites only being mentioned in the section "Linguistic and cultural communities" (apart from the lead), and they do speak an Albanian dialect, so there's no accuracy problems here. What is it exactly that you propose should be removed or rewritten? Maybe this could be solved by renaming the section or giving the Arvanites a section of their own in which their situation is explained. Super Ψ Dro 13:16, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. The "Linguistic and cultural communities" section wont be enough to differentiate the Arvanites from the new title's meaning, otherwise the necessity of the removal of Arvanites upon article move couldn't have been raised. Perhaps your proposal, to have the Arvanites moved to a section of their own, can work well as a solution to that problem. However the new section will have to be named carefully, in a more historical context, since these communities are not considering themselves as Albanians anymore, while they are present in the article due to their Albanian past/origin, besides their endangered Arvanitika language. Your proposal for a new separate section can be a good idea for one more reason as well: it doesn't go against the WP:RS, which is a positive thing here. However I can't come up with any good section names myself. Perhaps if can you or someone else propose any ideas for the new section's name, that will be appreciated. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking of just naming this section "Arvanites", but perhaps it could be something more like "Historically Albanian communities"? To be honest I don't think we should put too much effort into coming up with a perfect section name since the article is far from perfect. It is pretty unorthodox and the Cham Albanians already have a section of their own anyway. Super Ψ Dro 19:39, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I see no problem with your proposed section title. "Historically Albanian communities" sounds like a good and accurate title that denotes their historical connection. Considering this solution, your page move request has my endorsement as well. Good day. Update: @Super Dromaeosaurus: my apologies, may I propose a better section name for it? After a careful evaluating the sources and giving more thought to it, I realized that "historically" is a tad ambiguous because the term may falsely imply that everything about them is "historic", besides their origin. Such as the language, culture, etc. Which is not true. For example, the Arvanitika is still spoken today by the elder generations. Therefore to ensure that there are no POV issues or inaccurate implications in the section's name, I'd propose the term "Greek communities of Albanian descent" instead. Since it focuses only on the actual thing that differentiated them: their ancestry and self determination. Also, one good reason for proposing "Greek communities of Albanian descent" is that it exactly eliminates any possible POV implications that their language is a thing belonging to history too. This way we can make sure that the section's name won't be contested by future editors. After all, my proposal is in line with how Wikipedia is categorizing the Arvanites, as "Category:Greek people of Albanian descent" (see bottom of their article). Thanks for your understanding and I am very sorry for bothering you with this, but it is important that we have a futureproof sentence that will be stable and make sure it has no POV issues at all. I will really appreciate your support on this. Good day! --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 20:05, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section name will probably be controversial in the future, but yeah you are right in that "historically Albanian communities" may give an inaccurate impression. I don't oppose your proposal, you may apply it if you wish. Super Ψ Dro 13:29, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I too agree with the proposal of "Greek communities of Albanian descent" because it follows the WP:RS and the WP:NPOV showing that Arvanites are of Albanian descent but, identify as Greeks and not Albanians. Othon I (talk) 13:47, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Τhanks to both of you, I appreciate this. I will wait a bit before proceeding with applying the changes to make sure that any other participants have enough time to add to the discussion, if they wish. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 14:07, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I strongy disagree with any mention about "Greek communities of Albanian descent" in relation to individuals who lived in the 19th and early 20th century before 1945. They perceived themselves and were perceived by others as ethnic Albanians without any differentiation from other Albanians.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:20, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hence the Albanian descent in the name of the section, is there any source that you have that states that majority of Arvanites have been identified with the Albanian state? I doubt it so, this community cannot and is not going to be presented as minority simply because they identify as Greeks. And the Hellenisation of the Arvanites have started way before 1945. Othon I (talk) 13:29, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Could we change it to "Communities of Albanian descent in Greece"? Using "Greeks" feels ambiguous to me, it could either mean that there are some people in Greece with Albanian descent (no problem with that) or that there are some ethnic Greeks of Albanian descent (controversial and POV). "in Greece" would remove such a possible confussion. Super Ψ Dro 13:57, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These people today do not identify as Albanians, identify as Greeks and is backed by WP:RS. The feelings each other is something that is not treated by WP and I do not understand what is the confusion of Greeks of Albanian descent? Is for example confusing the English of Norman descent (Anglo-Normans) or the Gaels of Norse descent (Norse-Gaels)? Not to mention the Americans of any descent e.g. Greek Americans, German Americans etc. Should we name it Graeco-Albanian communities just to follow the same pattern? Othon I (talk) 14:22, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As you can see, the Arvanites, a community identifying as Greeks today, cannot have both the article and the section baptising them "Albanians in Greece" and "Communities of Albanian descent in Greece" because this combination of article name + section name is falsely implying that they are Albanians of Albanian descend. This ofc is unacceptable and goes against Wikipedia's NPOV rules and what the WP:RS state on the matter. Wikipedia is reflecting on the sources and considers them as Greeks of Albanian decent, and has categorized them as such. It is none's business (as editors) to replace the sources, with own editorial POV. We have to reflect on the sources which are very strong and indisputable: the Arvanites are Greeks of Albanian descend, meaning that they once were Albanians but identify themselves as Greeks (which covers both Maleshreiber's concerns regarding earlier centuries, and my and Othon's concerns over their modern idendity) This is a fair compromise that can work for both sides, and is fully in line with what the sources do state on the matter. Nothing less, nothing more. If editors arent happy, and if they don't respect what the indisputable majority of sources do say on the matter, then nothing good can come out of this. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:28, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, don't get me wrong; it is embarrassing that I have ever raised this debate here on this move request. I would rather be somewhere else now than ever bothering with such "details". The only reason I did so, is not because I personally view Albanians and Greeks as two separate people or whatever. In my opinion, and with all due respect, I view the Albanian and Greek ethnicities, as well as all other Balkan and world ethnicities, as unimportant. Because what really matters is that they all are humans who share a common home, Earth. Simple as that. But my allergia for nationalists cannot be combated with my personal philosophies and such crap. There is only one way to fight off nationalist POVs effectively, and that is by making sure that we stick with the reliable sources and facts, and that's what I am doing here. Again sorry for bringing up this debate, but I had to. The Arvanites have made their self-identification and we ought to respect it. Please no "yes but" here. Thank you.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:49, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

All ethnic Albanians in Greece until 1945 called themselves Albanians (Albanoi) in the context of a distinct ethnic community. SD's move request is probably not the place to discuss such matters. Individuals who have never called themselves Albanians and were never perceived by others as Albanians shouldn't even be called of Albanian origin - even if we know that they are of Albanian descent. It has no functional meaning to describe them as "Greeks of Albanian origin".--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:47, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I will strongly advise to drop the stick and move on instead of acting like WP:IDHT. The Arvanites in Greece never called themselves Albanoi, stop "confusing" them with the Cham Albanians. They are not a minority nor are perceived as such. They never called/call themselves Shqip, as the Albanians of the nation-state that has been established after the Balkan Wars. They called themselves "Arvanites" and this is reflected in the WP:RS. Stop WP:CHERRYPICKING. The section is perfectly fine to be named as "Greeks of Albanian descent". Same as my comment above about the Anglo-Normans or the Americans of any descent e.g.Greek Americans. If this continues, we will have to request a DRN. Othon I (talk) 06:45, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maleschreiber, I agree with what Othon I said, plus if I may add: It is not only that the absolute majority of reliable sources does consider the Arvanites to be Greeks of Albanian descend, but also Wikipedia has them categorized as such: Category:Greek people of Albanian descent.

As you can see, everyone is considering them as such. To convince us for the opposite, (i.e. to not use "Greek communities of Albanian descent" to describe them) will require strong, substantial and indisputable sources which I am afraid do not exist, and, you will have to go down the path of explaining to the Wikipedians why are you having a problem with the people's right of self-determination. You will need the luck on your side, because from my 12 year-long experience as an editor in the English Wikipedia, I know that the Wiki community is very resilient on such matters and has never allowed any editors in the Balkans topic area with nationalist POV agendas to ever challenge the Ethnic Macedonians's right to their self-determination "just because prior to 1940s they were something else". If you believe you have better changes using that argument against the Arvanites's right to self-determination, then good luck because it... well... never worked. :-) --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 10:35, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• @SilentResident:@Othon I: We discussed about historical self-perceptions at Talk:List of Albanians in Greece#Offensive designations and ahistorical designations. As a result of the previous discussion, you have access to an extensive list of sources which discuss the Arvanites. Debates presuppose different approaches in bibliography. There is no different approach in relation to Arvanites. They perceived themselves and were perceived by others unambiguously as Albanians until the 20th century. Panayotis Koupitoris wrote about the dialect of Albanians in Hydra. He didn't write about the dialects of "Greek communities of Albanian descent". The term you are proposing is ahistorical and can't be applied to anyone who lived before 1945. If you choose to insist on using this term, you can file another RM. Thank you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:52, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thing is, none here has disputed the Albanian origin of the Arvanites. Everyone here is accepting it. Therefore, if there are disagreements between the two of you about how they were called in the interwar period prior to 1945, then, take it elsewhere because it is irrelevant and offtopic to the present discussion about the section name. The section name "Greek communities of Albanian descent" has nothing to do with interwar periods or how they were perceived. The Section name reflects only on 2 indisputable facts: their origins as Albanians + their modern idendity as Greeks. Simple as that. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 14:21, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nope Malescreiber, wrong again, you have stated various dubious statements that again you follow the same pattern of WP:CHERRYPICKING. I am not sure why Malescreiber continues the WP:IDHT stance and does not pay attention on what we are stating. I haven't got any doubt that Arvanites are of Albanian descent. On the contrary, I am actually explaining that to people who are ignorant about this. That does not change the fact though that these people self identify as Greeks. They have been through a process of assimilation throughout the years and have disassociated themselves when the Albanian nation state has been created after the Balkan wars. Additionally, falsification of sources should be avoided, stating that assimilation of Arvanites started after the WWII is completely nonsensical. It has started way before. Also, as you can see even scholars such as Trudgill^[1] use the proposed terminology, a scholar that has been extensively sourced in the Arvanites article. I would recommend to read the article, I believe it will solve many misconceptions Othon I (talk) 17:35, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Following the practice of all other articles about ethnic groups. If some Albanians after ww2 were assimilated, it can be covered in a couple of sentences. It doesn't make Albanians in the previous 700 years in modern day Greece, "Greeks of Albanian descent". Assimilation happens everywhere in the modern world. It doesn't change the history of ethnic groups. Also, the majority of Albanians in Greece today migrated in modern times (over half a million). Durraz0 (talk) 16:30, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide me WP:RS confirming that the Arvanites do not consider themselves as Greek nowadays. Strong and indisputable sources are required to support such WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims. Or else your WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH statement will be ignored, I am afraid, since it goes against Wikipedia's rules and specifically WP:VERIFIABILITY. Do not mention that, to call a group something other than how they identify themselves, goes against Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy as well. The respect to the people's identity is a red line that none can cross in the Project without consequences, and those who have attempted it in the past (i.e. against the Ethnic Macedonians), got blocked or topic-banned by the Admins. I am sure this is not what you want here, do you? Wikipedia is based on WP:RS and not on WP:OR, and thus, the necessary section clarifications will apply as intended. Any attempt to violate these rules, will leave me no other option but ask for admin attention since the article falls under WP:BALKANS and WP:AE and the admins are tired of such nationalist crap. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:52, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The comment It doesn't make Albanians in the previous 700 years in modern day Greece, "Greeks of Albanian descent". Assimilation happens everywhere in the modern world. It doesn't change the history of ethnic groups. reveals a pre-modern, primordialist, and essentialist mindset that is exactly the kind of thinking we don't need in the topic area. Khirurg (talk) 00:42, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I said that Arvanites were just another Albanian group which in the last 100 years was partially or largely assimilated. If an article talks about 21st century Arvanites, it can say what sources agree about that. Arvanites of the 19th and 18th century were not assimilated and they can not be called as the same thing that a part of their descendants might be called. It is very anachronistic. I do not see what any of this has to do with Super's move request. If you believe that an admin should review my comments, you can ask for a review and both of our comments can be reviewed. Durraz0 (talk) 13:03, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Arvanites do not identify as "Albanian", as evidenced by the entirety of WP:RS in the field, and thus renaming to "Albanians in Greece" would violate this and be a disservice to our readers. The arguments that "they identified as Albanians" long ago is a non-starter. It doesn't matter what they identified as 100 years ago, it matters how they identify now. Nowadays, for most English-speakers, "Albanians in Greece" generally refers to Albanian immigrants of the last few decades, not people that are of Albanian descent, but identify as Greeks. Khirurg (talk) 00:40, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What's with this huge focus on the Arvanites? This article isn't about them, it is about the Albanians in Greece, it also includes Cham Albanians, Western Thrace Albanians and immigrants from Albania. I see a dangerous obsession over this issue in this editing area. Also, it has already been discussed that the info on the Arvanites in this article will be rewritten. Super Ψ Dro 09:43, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Many Arvanites have been "assimilated" in the last 100 years. They are no longer Arvanites, but some Arvanites still exist. This doesn't erase the fact their ancestors from the 13th to the 20th century are part of the Albanians in Greece. And they are not the only Albanians in Greece: medieval Albanians, Cham Albanians, Albanians in Thrace, Albanians in Western Macedonia and recent immigrants including Kosovar Albanians all fall under the scope of this article. @Durraz0: The assimilation of Arvanites won't cover more than a small subsection. --Maleschreiber (talk) 12:14, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Many Arvanites have been "assimilated" in the last 100 years. They are no longer Arvanites, but some Arvanites still exist. Maleshreiber, assimilation into Greek society doesn't deprive the Arvanites of their roots as you claim in your comments. Quite the opposite. They just don't view themselves connected to the Albanians the way you are trying to understand it. Assimilation in the Greek society didn't deprive the Arvanites any parts of their identity. They maintain it, just they don't view it as opposing their Greek one. If you haven't really met an Arvanite in real life like some of us do, then you can't really understand them. To hear you commenting about them here, its disheartening because your impressions of the Arvanites clearly come either from political sources or non-living sources. But for editors such as me, Arvanites are part of our daily lives. Heck, I have Arvanites in my own family, as well as friends. If you don't have the required competency to understand what it is to be an Arvanite, then, as admirable as your interest for them may be, just leave it. After all we aren't here to debate about them but reflect on facts, which is that they view themselves as part of the Greek society. Gies mir. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 13:06, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• @SilentResident: I think that you're taking the discussion in a direction which is not related to the context of the RM. That some Arvanites today are assimilated, doesn't make Arvanites of the 19th century assimilated. @Super Dromaeosaurus: proposed a name change because this article is about all Albanians in Greece, not Arvanites in the 21st century. Arvanites in the 21st century ≠ Arbëreshë (their endonym) in the 19th century and Arvanites in the 21st century ≠ Albanians in Greece, which includes Albanians in Thrace, Macedonia, Epirus, immigrants and medieval Albanians. Several comments discuss the subject as if all Albanians in Greece are Arvanites, but Arvanites of the 21st century are a small subset.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:19, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Reading again and again the above comments, I am realizing that the purpose of some editors here may be to derail the discussion without actually contributing to the discussion about the section's name. I will make it clear to everyone here: the Arvanites exist and they have made their choices on their identity and everyone here should respect that instead of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The article's section will reflect on Arvanites, not on what some editors may believe about them. Simple as that. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 13:21, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• @Maleschreiber: From the moment there is a section about these Arvanites who today self-identify as Greeks, and there is a proposal to have the article moved into a new name that doesn't reflect on the Arvanites accurately, then the section name will have to provide for these necessary clarifications/corrections. How simpler do I have to explain this to you than that?--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 13:27, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The history of the Arvanites in the 21st century doesn't affect the history of their ancestors in the 19th century. They were Albanians in Greece and they perceived themselves as ethnic Albanians. And Arvanites are not the only Albanians in Greece.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:34, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you oppose "Greek communities of Albanian descent" for the Arvanites, then? The section (and the category) name means exactly that: their ancestors were Albanians and they themselves are Greeks today and the section is meant solely for the Arvanites, not the other Albanians in Greece. What are you arguing about? The others already asked you but you haven't clearly stated what are you arguing about. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 13:46, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I've given the Arvanites a section of their own simply called "Arvanites". I can't imagine why this would be controversial. I don't see any use in having a section called "Greek communities of Albanian origin" (which, as I had said, turned out to be controversial) when such a section would only cover the Arvanites. The Western Thrace Albanians, Cham Albanians and Albanians from Albania also have their own section. The information that may be in each of these sections is not relevant to this RM and whoever wants to can change it. Please let's focus on the RM now. Super Ψ Dro 14:08, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So the argument to the proposed naming of the section by Silent Resident is that it would be controversial? Care to give a reason please? The proposed name is simple "Greeks of Albanian descent" then to include the Arvanites on it. Its self explanatory and presents the information in according to WP:NPOV. Also, I do not understand why none cares from the opposition on this debate about how they identify now? They identify as Greeks, so they are Greeks but of Albanian descent. Americans identify as Americans but are of a descent, do we call them Germans? or Greeks? We call them "Something" American. Simple as that. Even Trudgill above call them Albanian-Greeks. I am starting to have a feeling that there is an WP:NATIONALIST agenda behind that and there is not other choice to request admin intervention if this non-constructive WP:IDHT stance continues. Othon I (talk) 14:21, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Albanians some of whom today are known as Arvanites are attested in Greece in many waves of migrations from the 13th to the present day. Some of them were assimilated in the 20st century. There is an article about Arvanites and there is a section in this article about Arvanites. "Greeks of Albanian descent" may refer to some individuals in the 20th and the 21st century, not to individuals in the 19th century. History of Arvanites in Greece before the 20th century is not the history of assimilated individuals in the 20th century. Trudgill wrote in 1977 about some Arvanite villages in his era. Side comment: Nobody can accuse any editor of a nationalist agenda because they disagree with their opinion. Everyone has the right to have any opinion. What is constructive or non-constructive is determined via community discussions. --Maleschreiber (talk) 14:38, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I already stated why "Greek communities of Albanian origin" could be controversial: because it can be either interepreted as that there are communities of Albanian origin in Greece or as that the Arvanites are ethnic Greeks with Albanian origin. I don't think it is neutral to call them ethnic Greeks but to call them ethnic Albanians isn't. I proposed earlier the unambiguous "Communities of Albanian origin in Greece" but it was rejected because it supposedly labelled the Arvanites as Albanians (I don't see how). "Arvanites" is 100% neutral and no side here could possibly say it is not a neutral section name; we may not be able to say the same for "Greek communities of Albanian origin". And again, any user that wishes to can rewrite the content within the section. It is already stated that they self-identify with Greece nowadays, so what's exactly the issue here? Please tell me because I don't see any. Super Ψ Dro 14:53, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I will take the case to the AE if this nationalist delirium continues and the concerns as expressed by other editors aren't taken in consideration and you keep an uncompromising attitude. 1) Wikipedia categorized the Arvanites as "Greeks of Albanian origin" and you ought to respect that. 2) The Arvanites themselves consider their selves to be Greeks of Albanian origin and you ought to respect that. 3) The sources all confirm that they nowadays view themselves as Greeks, not as Albanians, and again you ought to respect that.. If the article title move to fails to provide the necessary clarifications in article title level, then they will have to be provided in the next possible level, the section title. Or else the content gets removed from the article because the way the community identifies itself, conflicts with the proposed Article title for which the section title doesn't correct and amend either. Anything else is just getting the Arvanites, a non-Albanian community, listed and flagged as Albanian community, which is against what the WP:RS do state, and against WP:NPOV. Is like having the article of the British people listing the British Americans directly in it. Simple UNACCEPTABLE, and goes against Wikipedia's common practices.

Maleschreiber's edit history log for the past year shows that the editor was engaged in several nationalist disputes and controversial edits that went against NPOV. Their insistence here to categorize a community that isn't Albanian anymore, as "Albanians in Greece", without clarifications either in Article title level or section title level, is to ignore the WP:RS and NPOV, and go against Wikipedia's rationale and instills me little faith that the editor's goals here aren't part of the same nationalist agenda. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:26, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"to categorize a community that isn't Albanian anymore" you said it yourself. They might not be Albanians anymore. But you said yourself they used to be. Therefore, they belong to this article, fully or to an extent. We do not exclude information on ethnic groups because they have disappeared or have changed their self-identification. If not, Wikipedia would not have articles on Cumans, Khazars, Huns, etc. Say the Arbanasi people get 100% assimilated tomorrow. Would we delete their article? Would we exclude them from the article Albanians and would we never mention them anymore there? No. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason why we should have to remove the Arvanites from this article, no matter what it's called. I will repeat for the third time, any editor can change the information that is under the section if they are not satisfied with it. I don't know if the main opposers to the proposed article title are aware of this, since they have mainly devoted themselves to raising complains in this talk page instead of doing one single edit on the article. Are you not satisfied with what the section about the Arvanites says? Then act. Add info about them currently self-identifying as Greeks. I do not care. But, you have said it yourself, they used to be Albanians, so they logically have something to do with an article that has been proposed to be renamed to "Albanians in Greece". And you can make a request to WP:AE, if you wish to argue alone. We have already written way too many unnecessary paragraphs. I have no intention of participating in a discussion to write more of them. Super Ψ Dro 15:49, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If they are to be mentioned in a solely historical context as you claim, then I am sorry, but it cannot be done the way you and Maleschreiber asked, it will have to be done carefully, as explained here: [2]. Good day--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:11, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• What's POV or NPOV is determined via community consensus. I don't think we're improving the debate by accusing other editors of having a nationalist agenda. This article is about all Albanians in Greece but you argue against the move as if this article is only about Arvanites in the 21st century. We can agree to disagree, but now we should allow other editors to have their say. This is a community discussion. Thank you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:37, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• 'Support' move to Albanians in Greece. The article includes information about all Albanians living in Greece as well as their history. Although the "counter-argument" asserts that because a section of Albanians has been assimilated, the term "Albanians in Greece" should no longer be used, this is not valid. In Greece today, there are more than 500k Albanians who have not been "assimilated" into society. The Albanians who are now assimilated were not assimilated 100 years ago. When it comes to the 19th century, the sources appear to refer to them as simply Albanians.[3] : "The one who had a greater impact on Albanian literature itself was the nationalist publisher and writer Anastas Kullurioti of Athens. Kullurioti was born in the Plaka district of the Greek capital ... inhabited by Albanians at the time, still bears its Albanian name. Kulluriot is remembered not only as a publisher of the weekly newspaper The Voice of Albania, but also for his Albanikon alfabetarion/Abavatar Arberor/Albanian Primer, a bilingual primer or speller of his native dialect. It included an introduction to Albanian grammar and a selection folk tales, poetry and proverbs of the Albanians of Greece. --Excine (talk) 15:07, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We're not in the 19th century anymore, and these people no longer identify as Albanians. So to rename the article to "Albanians in Greece" would be a misnomer if they are included. Khirurg (talk) 15:11, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Albanians in Greece include: medieval Albanians, Cham Albanians, Orthodox Chams, other Muslim Albanians until the 20th century, Albanians in Thrace, Albanians in Western Macedonia, recent Albanian immigrants and Arvanites (13th-21st centuries). If some Arvanites are assimilated today, it doesn't mean that Albanians didn't live in 19th century Greece. It's a Venn diagram error to say that because some Albanians were assimilated, there shouldn't be an article about Albanians in Greece. Even if we didn't mention Arvanites in the 20th and 21st centuries in this article not much would be excluded. Their history until the 20th century would still be included and would end with a sentence about assimilation. And if there are any efforts to revitalize Arvanitika in the future, it'll still be mentioned in this article because it concerns the Albanian language. Any article about Albanians in Greece overlaps with the history of Arvanites because it's the same population until the 20th century. In practical terms what you are arguing for isn't workable. And in terms of wikipedia practices, all articles about ethnic groups mention that some of them have been assimilated in other groups where such a cultural-political shift has occurred. Pontic Greeks mentions the Rum Turks, who are Pontic Greeks but consider themselves Turks.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:27, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Then you will have to 1) Remove the current section about Arvanites, 2) Create a new one based on the same approach as the British Americans were presented in the article of British people if you must, without referring to the British Americans (Arvanites of 21th Century in our case) directly and only limiting the info to the historical ones, the Arvanite ancestors, and it has to be written in a past tone. And 3), the section name cannot be "Arvanites" (without historical qualifier), or "Arvanites (13th-21st centuries)" because it violates NPOV about 21th Century Arvanites not being "Albanians in Greece". Section title may only titled in a historical context such as "Arvanite communities of the Past" or "Arvanites (13th-20st centuries)", for the aforementioned reasons. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:35, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder why would you not do this yourself. You are the one who disagrees with what the current section says, so there should be no one more appropriate than you to write one more section to your liking, not those who disagree. I remember seeing you mention reliable sources and related stuff on more than one occasion in this discussion. It would then be expected that you have some sources on hand to help write a more satisfying section for all sides and to allow the article to be renamed. Super Ψ Dro 16:25, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To include 20th century and 21st century Arvanites is a blatant endorsement of Albanian WP:NATIONALIST POV. Bintliff who is also excessively sourced in the article of Arvanites states the following for Hieronymus, the Archbishop of Athens and all Greece: Hieronymus, watched over my shoulder as the maps took shape. "Very interesting," he said, looking at the symbols for ethnicity, "but what you have written here is quite wrong. You see the people in Greece who speak a language like Albanian are Arvanites, not Alvanoi, and they speak Arvanitika not Alvanika.^[1] People like Hieronymus are included in the article and you attempting to label them Albanian, if this is not a nationalistic agenda what is it? Othon I (talk) 16:23, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. The division of the 20th century accurately will be almost impossible and unecyclopedic. Even the elder Arvanites who were born in the first half of the 20th century (pre-1945) are considering themselves Greeks, such as Ieronymos II of Athens who was born in 1938. It was exactly this kind of problem of POV the reason my proposal for Greek communities of Albanian descent is a lot better, as it avoids this problem all together and should be supported.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:32, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

People don't develop ethnic awareness at age 7 or earlier. It is not impossible to suggest that Ieronymos II of Athens could have been affected by post-1945 assimilation. "The division of the 20th century accurately will be almost impossible and unecyclopedic". I don't see how. We can say that the Arvanites originate from a wave of Albanian settlers that eventually changed their ethnic identity in the 19th (?), 20th and 21st centuries. That'd be enough. It isn't like we have a lot of info to rewrite. Super Ψ Dro 16:38, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

All the sources confirm that they were assimilated already by the end of the 20th Century. How the heck does the 21th century has anything to do with that? Super Dromaeosaurus, it has become clear to me that you aren't here to contribute positively. Im sorry but I am opposing your Page Move request and in the event you attempt to violate NPOV regarding Arvanites, your name will be included in the AE report. Good day.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:56, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"All the sources confirm that they were assimilated already by the end of the 20th Century" then add those sources, and rewrite the section you disagree with! Super Ψ Dro 17:04, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

...Which requires that the section title is more neutral and clarified as well. Like how it was done at the British People where you won't see a section titled "British Americans" listed as "British people" which would otherwise be a violation of Wikipedia's NPOV rules. Instead, the section about them is more neutrally named, i.e. "United States". Have you grasped that yet or not?

No, I haven't, because "Arvanites" is perfectly neutral. I have also said I support "Communities of Albanian origin in Greece", but of course, this is an extremely severe violation of WP:NPOV and will gain me a mention in WP:AE, I did grasp that. Super Ψ Dro 17:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

When you are requesting a page move and at same time you are telling us to ignore the POV issues stemming from it and when you are telling us to ignore the reliable sources in their entirety while picking up a new section name, then what it is if not a violation of Wikipedia's NPOV rules? "Arvanites" section under "Albanians in Greece" isn't sufficient and doesn't reflect on WP:RS while "Greeks of Albanian origin" under "Albanians in Greece" does, and in line with how it is done about such cases across Wikipedia (common practice). It won't be easy to explain to the admins why you want a different practice to be applied for the Arvanites here than the one commonly applied across the Project. Take my word for it, everyone has grown impatient lately with the Balkans topic area and your stance against the WP:RS has been unhelpful. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:07, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you get it. I know Arvanites self-identify as Greeks. Have this in mind. I am also not calling them Albanians. Have this in mind too. But they used to self-identify (or be) as Albanians, you yourself said this. You say "Arvanites" is not a neutral section name. Well, I say "Greeks of Albanian origin" isn't either. It's your word against mine (or are there sources straight up calling Arvanites as a Greek subgroup?. All I've seen is sources saying they identify as Greeks and that they aren't a minority).

I am getting a bit tired of repeating myself. May you tell me exactly why do you not support "Communities of Albanian origin in Greece"? I did say why do I disagree with "Greeks of Albanian origin". Is it because it isn't calling them Greeks? I've seen in many articles that the Arvanites self-identify as Greeks, but not that they are Greeks. "Communities of Albanian origin in Greece" does not asign neither the label "Greek" nor the label "Albanian" to the Arvanites, and I don't see anything not neutral with this. "and at same time you are telling us to ignore the POV issues stemming from it and when you are telling us to ignore the reliable sources" please don't make up things. I didn't tell you to ignore anything. All I've done is tell you I disagree with "Greeks of Albanian origin" and to actually rewrite the section if you disagree with it (something you've kept ignoring). "and in line with how it is done about such cases across Wikipedia (common practice)" you've kept saying this, but you didn't provide any examples. Super Ψ Dro 19:34, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because my patience is getting in critically low level not only yours, is there a reason that you are persistently ignoring my comments about how WP:RS scholars such as Bintliff and Trudgill whoare calling them? (Albanian-Greeks (Greeks of Albanian Descent)) Othon I (talk) 20:09, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What are you even talking about? None of those two calls them "Greeks of Albanian descent". Bintliff doesn't even call them "Albanian-Greeks", only Trudgill does. If they do, what happens here is that you haven't quoted the sources where they do, not that I am "persistently ignoring" your comments. Super Ψ Dro 20:50, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

*Oppose page move request. The OP has been defiant to the NPOV concerns of the editors despite my hard efforts to explain to them the issues emanating from this, and is seeking to make changes that are not in line with how Wikipedia has dealt with similar cases. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:56, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is funny to see this is your response to my continued requests to you of rewriting the section to something more of your preference. Super Ψ Dro 17:04, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Your response indicates that you haven't listened to what three (3) different editors told you. I'm sorry for you. The text and section title will be updated accordingly, in due time, don't worry. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:35, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose the reason has been stated in most of my comments above. The OP and other user opposing the naming of the section suggested by Silent Resident intentionally neglect the sources provided and examples of other articles in WP such as Anglo-Normans and Greek Americans. Othon I (talk) 18:21, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: Arvanites, Albanian speakers who were integrated into Greek national identity as early as the first half of the nineteenth century and who in no way consider themselves as an ethnic minority. [4] Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 17:11, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Both the current name and the proposed one have the same meaning. Since the proposed one is shorter, it is more suitable based on naming policies. However, it is not a big issue if the current one is kept. The accusations about POV pushing, nationalist editing and repeated boring threats and "warnings" are naive but, unfortunately, usual in this topic. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:43, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As you see, this is what happens when editors choose to ignore the reliable sources despite the project's rules being very clear that editorial views have no weight versus scholarly views. The issue should have been resolved days ago had 1) everyone kept their personal views on history for themselves, 2) had respected what the academics say on the matter, and 3) support solutions consistent with Wikipedia's rationale and common practices in similar articles, and 4) respect and reflect how Wikipedia has categorized the Arvanites since 24 August 2009, which had everyone's WP:CONSENSUS for decades. This is how to avoid creating problems and disrupting the stability of articles. All the editors here, including me, you and the others, have to show some competence here and read the sources. If some of us can't do that, then they should leave it to those who can, or else sanctions should be considered when everything else fails. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 21:14, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And you again redirect the discussion to "sanctions". You do not even understand that the move request is entirely unrelated to your concern. Whether the Arvanites should be mentioned in the article or not, and if yes, in what context, is unrelated to the requested move. "Albanian communities in Greece" is not different in meaning from "Albanians in Greece". User:Super Dromaeosaurus is proposing to make the title shorter, not to change its meaning. Anyways, at least stop making empty threats after threats as it so boring and makes you look off-topic, especially when done within walls of text. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:50, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If by "empty threats" you are referring to my warnings of bringing your past involvement in nationalist editing across 20 different articles in the Albania topic area to admins, then why dont you ask the admins yourself? I dont know why you thought I was bluffing, because they have been informed already of your actions. Good day. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 04:35, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, you can continue your boring walls of accusations against other editors as a monologue. Ktrimi991 (talk) 05:40, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Monologue? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad your overall editorial contributions in Wikipedia have improved ever since. My personal impression is that your involvement in nationalist disputes across the Balkans topic area has been decreased and that's certainly a positive thing. There is still some room for improvement though, such as accepting WP:RS that may have a POV different than the one you supported in your disagreements with fellow editors, as well as having a tendency of downplaying their NPOV concerns just to keep the version of the disputed content you prefer. You got a potential but you can make the difference once you have worked on these 2 points. As for this page move request, everyone here is fully aware what exactly the NPOV concerns are and what the WP:RS do state on the matter. I can't be more clear than this. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 07:58, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per points already raised above. The article is about all Albanians in Greece, not just the Arvanites or other communities that lived in Greece in the past. It is also required for consistency reasons. Uniacademic (talk) 20:40, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support While navigating through some of Wikipedia's policies, such as WP:CONSISTENCY, I just realized that, actually, is was problematic and hypocritical of my part to oppose the Wikipedia's common practice and rationale application regarding the article move from "Albanian Communities in [COUNTRY NAME]" into "Albanians in [COUNTRY NAME]" in line with how it was done for the Albanians across Wikipedia, yet, at same time, to support Wikipedia's common practice and rationale application regarding the treatment of Arvanites the same way other people which nowadays identify as something different than their ancestors, as is the case of British Americans, (or even Anglo-Normans and Greek Americans as User:Othon I pointed to). Resolving NPOV problems regarding section of Arvanites should not be detrimental or dependent on improvements in other areas. Both rationales should apply unconditionally if we really want to steer clear of POV issues in the WP:Balkans topic area. For this very simple reason, I am changing my vote from oppose to support.

With all respect, I recommend that the users Othon I and Khirurg reconsider their positions as well, because the approach we took is actually in favor of a partial application of common rationale and WP:CONSISTENCY and this isn't exactly helpful. What needs to be done is its full application, for both cases, the Albanians and the Arvanites like how it was done for similar cases across the Wikipedia Project. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 11:28, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as mentioned by several editors above.--Lorik17 (talk) 14:46, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Conditional Support I didn't disagree with the renaming per se, I have disagreed with the one-sided pov pushing of certain users. However, as soon as the OP applies to the section of the Arvanites the same common practices and for consistency (the grounds for the renaming are the common practices in WP as well) as in British Americans and Anglo-Normans you have my consent to proceed. Otherwise this article will violate the WP:NPOV policies. Othon I (talk) 07:33, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Although the reason the Arvanite section shouldn't be linked to the page move request is because the section name should apply regardless of move. Per the vast majority of international scholars, the Arvanites are related to both the previous page title and the proposed page title by descend only. Due to this indisputable fact, the section name should be updated to include the term "of descent" to maintain neutrality nevertheless. A wp:consensus may be required about the page move but no wp:consensus is required about the section's neutrality. Wp:neutral reflects solely on academic consensus, neutrality is non-negotiable and cannot superseded by editor consensus.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 09:31, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've restructured the article. Tell me if you're satisfied with it or not. Super Ψ Dro 13:35, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If a section title about "communities of Albanian descent" is used then it excludes all history of Arvanites before the late 19th and 20th century because these individuals are called Albanians in bibliography and perceived themselves as Albanians. The result will be that their history won't be discussed in this section but in a separate one about history of Albanian presence in Greece.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:53, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad we have come to a fruitful outcome. "Communities of Albanian descend" is the bare minimum for maintaining neutrality and thank you for taking in account the NPOV concerns of other editors. What could have satisfied me fully is to have their modern identity explicitly mentioned in section name as well. I guess I wont insist with that, hoping that the "of X descend" suffices in meaning that X is referring to a historical context only, and thus, the Y (modern identity) may not be as necessary. However if any editors do still have their NPOV concerns that the section isn't clarifying things enough, then we ought to include further clarifications. So far, I think I am ok with it. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:49, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• For future reference to editors of this article: Orthodox Albanian speaking people (Arvanites) for the most part did not and do not want to be or identify as Albanians. Fieldwork and study after study after freaking reputable study done by western scholars and academics for decades shows how much they want to move away both in past times and now from any form of Albanianess, i.e. language or and with most not even acknowledging a connection to Muslim Albanians or Albanian speaking Catholics. Those studies show the Arvanites constant expression of contempt and derision toward a language which they view as either an Ottoman imposition, a made up language or worse. Arvanites have made barely any attempt to preserve their ancestral Albanian language (yes a few antiquarians like Aristidhes Kolias & co tried in 1980s and failed miserably among the community). Sure some of you will point out that on present Albanian TV they show some old Arvanite folklorist or a few villagers in their 70s or 80s recorded in recent times here or there speaking the language, with a great many Albanian viewers getting all "patriotically aroused" seeing and thinking that somehow yes this is the overall picture of these people, long lost compatriots "suffering" under the yoke of Hellenism waiting to be liberated or helped, "Albanians in waiting" or even "crypto-Albanians"! Absolutely fucking not. And what of the Arvanite youth? Where are the studies of the past 20 or so years showing that the young speak or preserve Albanian among themselves or are at least language activists seeking to preserve the language? Arvanites after all now live in a EU Greece with what on paper are written human rights so this should not be an issue. And yet zero from the Arvanite youth. Heck, i dare someone here to cite me even one example of Arvanitika being taught in a university in Greece. Again nothing. Can we stop harping on about Arvanites because most of them, especially the millennial and zoomer generations don't give two stuffs about Albanians (neither did their parents, grandparents and so on going back 2 centuries) and they have a strong Orthodox Hellene outlook with Orthodoxy and Hellenism as the overall socio-cultural ideologies expressed through a Greek identity and language. Even Albanian migrants from Albania in Greece (post 1992) who are or were Albanian speaking Orthodox do not overwhelmingly see themselves as Albanians in Greece. Nitsiakos who has traversed southern Albania for so long and interacted with such people as they cross the border for employment sums it up with: p.315. [5] "Those who live in Greece describe themselves as Greeks from Northern Epirus, while those who stayed in Albania are integrated into the Albanian Christian Orthodox population." The majority of this population group including much of its youth is in Greece, leaving mainly the elderly in Albania. They have made for themselves a Greek future. And so have some Muslim Bektashi and Sunni Albanians who have claimed and taken on Northern Epirot identity and Orthodox religion after leaving Islam and Albanian identity (yes those studies exit as well! i.e. Kretsi: [6] and others) and migrated for Greece. The only community of Albanians who ever saw themselves as Albanians within the borders of modern Greece were the Muslim Albanian Chams and after about 2 decades they were expelled. Their assertion of their Albanianess was because of their religion, Islam. Their Orthodox Albanian speaking neighbours, the Arvanites of Thesportia never have asserted Albanianess, quite the contrary; they too like the rest of the Arvanites in southern Greece rejected anything and everything Albanian. To editors who want to play hero, reflect on this before going down the Rilindja nationalist rabbit hole.Resnjari (talk) 08:40, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Resnjari, good to see you here after so long and thanks for the comment. I know that we have extensively discussed back in the day, agreeing and disagreeing, but I felt the courtesy to reply and I must say that I am happy to agree with you to the last bit. Your comment is the essence of the WP:NPOV that we have requested with other users to be presented in the article here but it seemed to be a difficult task. None denies that Arvanites are of Albanian descent, that's a fact, however, denying that they identify as Greeks and that have kept an assimilatory stance since the 19th century is contradictory to what most of reliable and secondary sources say, this was the principal argument throughout the discussion above. Good day Othon I (talk) 10:04, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Othon I, yeah still alive living through the dystopia of Melbourne's lockdown, the covid situation, a federal conservative government's botched rollout of the vaccine and right wing/anti-vaxxer nutjobs in the area. Thought i would refrain for a prolonged time from Wikipedia, now coming back to some extent. Don't give a hoot about Arvanites or most Orthodox Albanian speakers, as per the above comment. Just giving a friendly disclaimer to those with a nationalist bent or otherwise who might view Arvanties as "Albanians" to really think before they play "hero".Resnjari (talk) 11:28, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resnjari, long time no see. Like Othon I has said, none here is questioning the Albanian roots of the Arvanites. That's out of the question. Our NPOV concerns were about the section name not reflecting on this fact. Which now it does, and everything's good. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 10:36, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello SilentResident, don't really care about the origins of Arvanites. Anyway, what i do care is editors old and new who really want to make a difference on Albanian topics wasting their precious time on these kinds of insignificant and insufferable topics about a people who do not want to be or identify as Albanians, including other Albanian speaking people from Albania who have followed them on that trajectory post 1992 when migrating to Greece.Resnjari (talk) 11:28, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Its ok if you don't care. Its ok if others do care too. However its not ok if you think it is a waste of time to try maintain neutrality. Wikipedia isn't only about significant topics, is also about wp:neutrality which is one of Wikipedia's five core pillars. If others have wp:neutral concerns in a topic as insignificant that may seem to you and you don't care, then you are welcome to just ignore the discussion. Now, about your comments on history, I won't comment since it isn't my concern here. Good day :-) --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 11:52, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Resnjari: Perceptions are socially, economically and culturally informed. I don't think that anyone is trying to turn the Arvanites into a Balkan-style minority. I think that it's offensive to a people who created a state to relegate them to minority status. The studies which you are citing describe the negative attitudes of Arvanites towards attempts to make them a minority. There are differences in studies in the last years in self-perception towards their language and culture.[7] Our own perceptions towards other communities also socially, culturally and economically informed. I think that your narrative overemphasizes the role of religion as opposed to social and economic factors.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:18, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maleschreiber, i've read those studies. Arvanites are very negative toward Albanians. That's mostly what they convey to scholars and academics studying them. In addition those studies are of the baby boomer generations and prior to that. And all is about terminal decline of language and whatever semblance of Albanianess they had left as they rushed to discard it for perceptions of backwardness etc at a time when Greece was on the road to modernisation/Europeanisation (joining the EU; leaving the Balkans economically, culturally) in the 1960s-1980s. My point is, wasting time on these kinds of communities is useless. Arvanite millennials and zoomers have all but turned their back on anything left as Arvanite. In the end it’s your call and for others, but editors should have the things I pointed out in mind before trail blazing on behalf of the Arvanites or Orthodox Albanian speaking people and their never ending identity and language issues.Resnjari (talk) 15:56, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Created a state? They were about 10% at that time and now even lower. Using this kind of WP:NATIONALIST language won't help you here. Best Othon I (talk) 15:01, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Arvanites, along with the Romioi Orthodox Greek speaking population created the early modern Greek state. Both people, Arvanites and Romioi amalgamated into a new unitary identity of Hellenes, a name revived from ancient times used by pagan Greek speaking people for the people today known collectively as Greeks. That ain’t nationalist, it’s out there in scholarship and fact. Anyway to be frank I don’t really give a shit about the birthing stories of Balkan nations, who are all the product of nationalism which brought about the destruction of the Ottoman state.Resnjari (talk) 15:56, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That’s the right way to say it. I did not deny that Romioi or Greeks (exonym) and Arvanites did create the state. I am opposing the nationalist surreal narrative that only Arvanites created the state. That’s it but yeah I don’t really care too about it. Just want the things to be said in the right way. Best Othon I (talk) 17:27, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Arvanites, along with the Romioi Orthodox Greek speaking population created the early modern Greek state. The Arvanites and the Byzantine Greeks (Romioi) weren't the only two 2 groups I am afraid. The Romas and Vlachs among others, too, have contributed at variying levels.

[...] amalgamated into a new unitary identity of Hellenes [...] Not so new. Unitary at later times perhaps, but not new. The idenity of the Byzantine Greeks as Hellenes was revived from the 13th century onwards, when the multicultural Byzantine Empire declined and the Byzantine identity weakened, allowing for the revival of the older Hellenic identity among the people in Greek communities, which persisted through the Ottoman times. For those interested in more info: [8]. However, I can't help it but wonder how this "discussion" about history is contributing to the Page move, or is related to the page itself? I have the impression it has nothing to do with the article. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:08, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]