Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Scroll

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was MERGE to American School in London, somewhat surprisingly given the course of things. I do wonder if those suggesting a merge are short of due diligence in determining whether this actually has any merit. Nevertheless, I'll simply apply the redirect. -Splash^talk 19:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete-Non notable middle school paper PlasmaDragon

Delete- I go to the school right now, and the paper is not notable. Please notice that our school IP address is the one that has made all of these edits related to the school newspaper. Its probably some kid from the school paper self advertising. It's fine enough just to keep the content we have in American School in London and forget about The Scroll.--Urthogie 22:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree; the Scroll is a notable middle school newspaper, as it wins awards and the editing staff are generally invited to a journalistic conference because of their hard work. Saying that someone on the paper is self advertising is absurd: it is a free newspaper given out to all ASL middle schoolers. I don't know what kind of personal vendetta you have against the scroll, but there is no need for you to do this. The Scroll wikipedia entry is not violating any wiki or school rules, and therefore your arguments are not valid. (Nakan) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.37.20 (talk • contribs)

• • Seeing as how it has a very small circulation among only a few hundred people at one school, it is completely non notable for anyone who doesn't already know about it (i.e. who doesn't go to the school). Rules are irrelevant here: notability is. Therefore, my arguments are valid.-PlasmaDragon 17:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • except that the scroll also gets given to other newspapers in the US in exchange for theres. if the other newspaper staff wants to know more, they can come here.(David)

"KEEP IT" What on earth do you have against the scroll!?! The Scroll is a notable paper and scored first class in a recent rating. it also won best of show for middle school newspapers during an NSPA confrence. I agree with the above when it says that " Saying that someone on the paper is self advertising is absurd: it is a free newspaper given out to all ASL middle schoolers." He has a perfect point; why on earth would a FREE newspaper that contains NO advertisments and sole purpose is to inform the population of the american school about goings on, want to advertise. The Scroll is a fabulous example of students trying (and succeding) to be heard in their community. scroll editors spend at least 2 hours a week working on the paper plus many of their weekends trying to put out the best paper they can. if you think that the paper is "bad" then take it up with the editors, but keep this page open to all that want to read about it. When you say "some kid" you are talking about 14 students selected out of 400 to represent their fellow students and voice issue concerning them. Please, at least treat the editors with some respect. (David)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.46.9 (talk • contribs)

• • This isn't about the quality of the paper, or what we think about the editors. I just respectfully think that this newspaper is not worthy of an encyclopedia article. And I think that when Urthogie said "self-advertising", he meant "vanity." Vanity pages are prohibited on wikipedia, by policy. Ergo, this article, which is in violation of policy, should be deleted.-PlasmaDragon 17:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• • Yeah, I don't think the paper would advertise, but some editor would, just to feel special. Vanity.--Urthogie 18:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. What is the NSPA? I couldn't find an article for it here. If the organization that gave the prize isn't notable enough for one, the paper who uses that prize as its sole reason for notability is not either.-PlasmaDragon 17:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• • http://www.studentpress.org/nspa/ Visit this for information on the NSPA. It is the largest student press orgainization in the US. I agree that if The Scroll isn't notable enough to have its own page, it should be included on the school page. Oh, and I can't figure out how to take the irrelivent notice off of the top of the page, but it should. This is not a page for slamming people. (Alex)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.249.71.9 (talk • contribs)

just a wuick thing about the NSPA, it is the sumber one Student newspaper prize giving organization in the world. when you apply for the New York Times (possibly the best paper on the planet) you are asked as one of the questions, weither or not you have ever recived 'any awards such as ones from the NSPA.'

Merge - not notable. merge into main entry for the school. -- infinity0 18:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We cannot; one of you have already deleted all mention of the Scroll on the American School in London page. There are other Middle School newspapers on this website; maybe you should target them instead of us. Or perhaps, you should just grow up and stop acting like an eight year old. (Nakan).

It'd be much easier to target them if personal attacks and baseless accusations weren't made everytime we voted someones vanity page for deletion. Also, please note that this IP that just posted is from the American school in london. It's incredibly immature to go creating vanity pages just to see yourself on an article.--Urthogie 10:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Ben, may i say one thing. this is not a vanity page. this page was not created with the purpose to promore ourselfs. we simply wanted people to know more about our paper. if you have an issue with, dare i say it, making information public and availible, i suggest you stop waundering around wiki.

Excuse me, dear sir, but direct me to the place where it says my name in glorious letters on the Scroll wikipedia page? This is about the Scroll itself. A concious decision was made when the page was made; we didn't use any names because we thought than we might avoid the accusation that you are making right now. This is not an attempt to make us feel better, but to inform other people from other schools about the Scroll. Wikipedia is supposed to be the ultimate encyclopedia, where every term can be defined. The Scroll is just as worthy to hold a single page of explanation as any other newspaper. There are some pages on Wikipedia which take up a lot more room and serve a lot less purpose than this one. Perhaps you should dedicate your noble efforts to those sites more worthy of your exaulted attention. (Nakan)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.24.83 (talk • contribs)

You said it perfeclty. This is an encyclopedia. Key word, encyclopedia. And some things aren't notable.--Urthogie 15:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was not aware I could say something perfeclty. Look, if this is some sort of vendetta against all middle school and high school newspapers, then I could accept it. But its not; for some reason you have singled out your own middle school newspaper for abuse. Why don't you go after the Trojan Times? They are a middle school newspaper. They have virtually the same layout as us. Go and flag them for deletion, just let us have our few kilobytes of space.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.37.20 (talk • contribs)

• To add to the above's point, the Trojan Times is much more of a vanity page than the Scroll's. The site clearly says,"Pierce Middle School's "Trojan Times" is widely regarded as one of – if not the – best middle school newspaper in the United States." The Scroll page doesn't have opinionated comments such as the one above. I believe that the page is enlightening other Middle School papers to that fact that there is a MS paper in the American School in London. I don't think it was a vanity page at all. I don't believe that it was created for this reason. I appreciate your opinions, Urthogie, but your points aren't convincing me. I didn't see anything on the Scroll page that caused me to believe what you said. (Alex)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.70.202 (talk • contribs)

I am not just picking on the Scroll; if I see another non notable middle school paper, I will recommend it for deletion, but yours is the only one I have chanced upon. If I see a page that "take[s] up a lot more room and serve[s] a lot less purpose than this one" I shall recommend it for deletion as well. You are welcome to go ahead an recommend the pages you refer to for deletion (you might want to register an account first). However, the fact that there are worse articles does not mean that this one is automatically considered of sufficient notability for wikipedia. The page itself does not provide much information that cannot be determined just by looking at a copy of the paper (e.g. the contents and sections of the paper) nor any information that would interest people who have not read a copy. This is because, and I mean no offense, the Scroll is pretty much an average middle school paper. It has interviewed a few moderately famous people, and has won a minor award, but on the whole it is not very distinguished from any of the other tens of thousands of middle school papers out there. It has not been the topic of any sort of news that extends beyond the school, nor does its readership extend beyond the school (and perhaps a few people in the schools that you send a copy of your paper to). Beyond the few people that already know about your paper, nobody cares about it. Sorry. It's a bit harsh, but it's a bit true. Nobody cares. Your paper is not famous or unusual enough to warrant an article on wikipedia. If you want other schools to have a place online where they can learn more about the Scroll, I recommend setting up a website or something and printing the URL in the paper. But wikipedia is not a place for your webpage and is not an indiscriminate collection of information, so it is not the place for this kind of thing. And if you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with the rules, policies and community of wikipedia itself.-PlasmaDragon 18:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As i said before, the awards it wins are not minor ("and has won a minor award," ) they are the best that is avaible for any student newpaper. "Beyond the few people that already know about your paper, nobody cares about it. Sorry. It's a bit harsh, but it's a bit true. " Mr ben it would seem that you think that your veiws represtent the rest of the world. Sir, they do not. it seems to me like you think that you are the ultimate wiki man and you alone have to power to say what is right and what is wrong, what people should read, what people should not. sounds a tad bit like Hitler to me.

• PlasmaDragon, you've given a really good argument. Go ahead and delete the page, because no matter what we do, the Scroll (and I say this in the most respectful way I can) isn't important enough to be in this online encyclopedia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.70.202 (talk • contribs)

Well, good sir plasmadragon (nice name, by the way, extraordinarily manly), you have outdone yourself once again. In suggesting that this is the first middle school paper that you "chanced" upon, also serves to suggest that you did not attempt to merely look through wiki's search engine. The first item that you find when searching "middle school newspaper" is "the trojan times," which is nearly identical to the page that the Scroll has set up. Why don't you go and flag their site for deletion, and dash their humble dreams upon the rocks? You claim that the Scroll is a "average middle school newspaper," which has won "a minor award." Well, that really depends on your definition of minor. My definition of minor is something that is not important; perhaps something that no-one notices. Well, it would be difficult for someone not to notice the Scroll if it was announced in front of 60,000 people who all heard about it win this "minor" award (an award you obviously know nothing about, and you merely assume that it a minor one). You are correct in claiming that what you wrote is a "bit true," but incorrect in claiming that no-one cares. Four hundred people, plus 200 faculty members all care. The award board who gave us our "minor" award cares. The dozens of schools we have sent the Scroll to all care. No sir, you are not picking an argument with the Scroll, but rather with all middle school newspapers; you are suggesting that even a newspaper that wins one of the most prestigious awards available to it is still worthless, minor, and not even deserving of a wikipedia entry, is suggesting that no middle school newspapers amount to anything. You see, sir, all middle school newspapers have the same limits; they do not really reach a large audience past their schools, none of them are particularly famous or unusual, and as you say, they have no worth. Indeed, while I might have a problem with Wikipedia itself, than you, dear sir, have a problem with all middle school newspapers, not just this one. And if that is a battle you are willing to take, than good luck to you, sir. (Nakan)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.37.20 (talk • contribs)

being smug won't win you any support. I suggest you nominate the trojan times for deletion if you don't like it existing.--Urthogie 21:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have listed Trojan Times for deletion too. I hope that makes you happy. As for a "minor" award, well, it's not exactly the Pulitzer, now is it? In front of 60,000 people? Was it given to you in a stadium? Anyway, since the article about the scroll claims a circulation of 1,000, but you say that only 600 people "care", I must confess that I regard any numbers you give me with suspicion. Oh, and 600/6,000,000,000 (the number of people who care divided by the population of the earth) = 0.0000001. So, on a global scale (this is, after all, the world wide web), virtually nobody cares. And yes, I have a problem with all middle school papers, and it is a battle that I am "willing to take." I daresay I am not alone.-PlasmaDragon 21:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge in school article as above. Non-notable on it's own, meatpuppet supported. --InShaneee 21:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge as per above. Chairman S. ^Talk 22:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But this does not end at the merger. There was a mention of the Scroll on the American School in London page, but it was deleted, by one of the posters above. The Scroll received the award in front of 60,000 people, all of whom were invited for their contribution to the school newspaper community. And your little division problem hardly strikes fear into my heart; seeing as only a billion or so have internet acess, your division problem works against you; the most any internet site can garner is 1/6 of the world population. You claim that the award that the Scroll wins (most every year), is "not the pulitzer." Well, of course it isn't. The Scroll cannot win a pulitzer, because that prize is not available to them. However, the Scroll can compete against schools from other continents in an attempt to win the prize that you are slamming. You obviously have not done very much research on the very thing that you say does not matter. And saying that no-one cares is incorrect; apparently you care quite a lot, otherwise maybe you wouldn't continue in this persecution of your own school newspaper. You might be claiming that the Scroll, and other pages like it are wasting space on the Wiki server; perhaps you don't realize that this page that you have created takes up at least double the space that our small, supposedly insignifigant page takes up. At the beginning of this argument, you claimed that you "chanced upon" this page. I find this highly unlikely; we put this page up nary a week ago, and you flagged it for deletion less than two days afterwords. Someone told you about this page, and you took as an oppurtunity to continue your personal vendetta against the Scroll. The Scroll is as notable as a Middle School newspaper can be, and maybe you should just accept that and stop whining about Middle School newspapers. Just allow the few of MS newspapers that are trying to expand into the internet to do so, instead of hindering them at every step. (Nakan)

Listen, Nakan (assuming thats your name). Lemme make the following clear:

1. Whoever removed the text from the article was in error. It would be restored(without the link) if/when this article is deleted.
2. Yes, this discussion has taken more time than the making of The Scroll, unfortunately. However, if you think of it in the larger context, this sets a precedent and makes it easier to delete other non-notables in the future.

Peace, --Urthogie 14:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, please. Now I am part of some sort of conspiracy that is carrying out a vendetta against your paper and only your paper. Give me a break. Anyway, I will prove how much I don't care by not posting here again. When someone starts spouting conspiracy theories, meaningful dialog has come to an end.-PlasmaDragon 17:26, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Urthogie, do not try and make out as if the removal of the text from the American School in London page was an error; you were the one who deleted it. And why do you have any doubts about what my name is? You could look me up in the directories right now, if you so desired (assuming you go to my school, which I think is very possible, Mr. Greenberg). I think that my arguements above speak for themselves, and if you have any desire to dislodge them you must give proof that the Scroll is non-notable. As I said above, the Scroll is as notable as it could possibly be; it cannot go beyond where it currently is. Just let us be, for the love of God; this is your school as well, have a little spirit. (Nakan)

As you can see, the account that did it was the School account([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=American_School_in_London&diff=44020878&oldid=43778563)). I remind you to assume good faith per Wikipedia:Assume good faith. In fact, just to prove you wrong, I'll revert whoever removed it in the first place. Don't assume.--Urthogie 18:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Wikipedia:Notability
• WP:NOT

After you're done reading these, you'll see that the wiki-world is not a place for self promotion. In fact, its discouraged that people write about things they're involved in, or about themselves-- creates bias. --Urthogie 20:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We are NOT self promoting; we are merely presenting information. There is no benefit that we can gain by self promoting, no amount of money, or cars, or even women. You make the same point again and again; please, spare me your stupidity.

User:DavidMax has stated that this is promotion for the paper. And yes, it is promotion to be prejudiced in favor of an organization you are a member of.--Urthogie 21:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Who is David Max? (Nakan)

Plasmadragon, you merely prove that you cannot let this go by checking this page every few hours, and posting everytime I respond. I will repeat my point: the Scroll is a notable MS paper. It has every right to be here. You are not part of this "conspiracy," but urthogie is. He went on to the ASL page and took out all references to the scroll. And you have not adressed how you found this page; surely it was not by an honest search?

He found this page because it was marked by a {{prod}} template. It doesn't help your case when you make uninformed accusations. By the way, who ever heard of a one man conspiracy?--Urthogie 15:13, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Who do you think the person who proposed this page for deletion was? This is not a conspiracy, and stop calling it one. the fact remains that someone (and according to the history of the page, Urthogie) deleted all references to the Scroll on the ASL wiki page. Please, just let this one go! What personal motivation do you have for keeping this fight going? The newspaper is notable. The newspaper deserves a wiki page as much as any other. And repeatedly claiming that the newspaper is non-notable and has won a minor award (an award it wins most every year), will not win you any respect. Just let this one go; prove yourself the bigger man and walk away. And Urthogie, if you do not go to this school you do not know if the Scroll is notable or not; you have never seen an issue.

I'm done arguing with you, just like Plasma. Your arguments aren't even grounded in truth-- I recently reverted back whoever removed The Scroll from the article. Peace, --Urthogie 21:42, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Urthogie, did you not claim at the beginning of this argument that you go to the school right now? So wouldn;t it be easy for you to delete the Scroll information? You can say that you are done with this, but you are not. This is not an argument about me or my aggressive posting habits, but about the Scroll. And merely claiming again and again that the Scroll is not notable (when in fact it certainly is, as proved above) does not automatically make you the victor. (Nakan)

Wikipedia has a policy called Assume good faith. You're not following it, and as a result you lend yourself to false assumptions. Like I said, I'm done arguing with you because of your immature approach-- I am confident that the administrator reviewing this discussion will opt for deletion. Good day,--Urthogie 11:04, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh no, woe is me! I'm not the wikipedia policy. Oh no! If I were you, I'd refuse to talk to me, because I have commited a most heinous crime! Go on, walk away, with your tail between your legs, refuse to speak to me. I am not considering you in good faith, because to date you have not given a plausible why the Scroll should be deleted. The Scroll has won many major awards and has achieved the highest possible acclaim that a MS newspaper can achieve. If you really think that it is not worth a few kilobytes of wiki's server, than you are a cold, black hearted man. Walking away does make you a bigger man, but you have not finished the argument; you have not rebuffed any of my points. (Nakan)

• Well, I know I promised not to post here again, but I noticed some inaccuracies in your statements, Nakan, that I simply could not stop myself from correcting. First of all, according to the article, the Scroll has not won many awards. It has won one, or at the most two. One of those is the NSPA first class ranking. According to this webpage (you'll have to scroll--no pun intended--down a lot, or better yet, just do edit->find for the word "class"), first class is the second best ranking given (the best is All-American, if you must know). Nor is it given exclusively: on the Internet, a cursory search revealed many other publications that had received a first class ranking too. If first class ranking alone were criteria for a wikipedia article, half of the wikipedia server hard drives would be clogged with a million entries of school publications. I exaggerate, of course, but do you see my point?

Then there is the claim that the Scroll was awarded best in show. That is not true. It was given third place best in show for junior high papers.[1] So, as we can see, the scroll has won one minor award (if the NSPA rankings are so important, why does the NSPA barely acknowledge their existance?), and almost won one other minor award (I doubt that the junior high papers were the highlight of the evening). Anyway, even if it had achieved the highest possible praise that could be given to a junior high paper, it would still not be notable. There are some things that, due to their limited geographical relevance, are simply not notable enough for wikipedia. For example, if I put together the best possible computer, overclocked it with liquid nitrogen, and got the highest 3D Mark score in the world, would my computer deserve an article on wikipedia? No, because it would still just be my computer that only I, my friends, my family, and possibly my neighbors would care about. It would do pretty much anything any other mid- to high-end computer purchased in the last year or two could do, except at a few more frames per second. The Scroll is the same way. It has nothing that any other middle school paper wouldn't also have (photos, editorials), and it isn't even the best. There is nothing notable about it. Who, outside of your school, do you think would see this wiki page and say "Wow! A first class middle school paper! With photos!"?

Maybe if your paper won 10 "All-American" rankings and was inducted into the Hall of Fame, as described on the NSPA webpage, it would be notable. Or maybe if there was some sort of landmark 1st Amendment court case involving your paper, it would be notable. But until then, it is not. And we cannot give you a few kilobytes. If we gave a few kilobytes to every middle school paper that won a minor award, then, as I touched upon earlier, there would be an overwhelming glut of articles on papers that few would care about, and wikipedia would be seen as only a massive jungle of vanity pages, from which the rare flowers of good articles on notable topics would be all but impossible to locate and extract.

In conclusion: the Scroll is not nearly as notable as its staff would have you believe, there is nothing about it that makes it sufficiently notable, and this article should therefore be deleted. --PlasmaDragon 14:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry. I do not know when I made a big mistake and made this personal, but reading back over this argument, I realize that I have looked like an idiot. I have been attacking the personal lives of people I don't even know, and making claims that are not grounded in fact. While I still disagree about the notability of the Scroll, I am not going to argue any more. My above arguments have ruined my credibilty, and I simply did not acknowledge the links that you sent me. You have tried to make this more a true argument, but everytime you did I attempted to call you out on personal details that I do not know for certain. My arguments have reflected poorly upon the whole Scroll staff, and I am truly sorry. I realize now that the Scroll wikipedia entry has no chance of surviving; perhaps if I had argued better, with your level of research, then it would have been different, but as it stands now, the Scroll wiki entry has no hope. I am throwing in the towel, and I can only hope that this final apology will return some dignity in the eyes of my peers and fellow wikipedia users.

I am truly sorry, (Nakan)

It's all good -- we're here to judge articles, not people.--Urthogie 16:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.