Talk:rosary
Add topicLatest comment: 11 years ago by BD2412 in topic rosary
Deletion discussion
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rfd-sense #3. Can't we generalize the first two senses to make the third unnecessary? --WikiTiki89 18:06, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- There does seem to be a distinction between the original sense of beads to keep ones place while reciting the rosary, and beads to keep track while performing any series of prayers or mantras in any religion. The tagged definition implies this is only used in Christianity, but in hinduism there's a type of rosary called a japa mala (Sanskrit जप (japa) माला (mālā)), (mala for short) that's used to ensure one repeats a mantra the correct number of times (see w:Hindu prayer beads). The definition needs to be fixed before we can realistically decide whether to delete the sense. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:34, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- I assume you're not arguing the legitimacy? To me a rosary is of the Catholic variety, so any other use would be a distinct sense. DAVilla 03:15, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- To me squirrels are gray, prayers are Jewish, cars are big, and sugar is white. That doesn't mean we need separate definitions like "sugar: 1. white sugar 2. brown sugar". Of course in Catholicism rosary refers to the Catholic variety, but in the context of any other religion that uses them it refers to that other religion's variety and they are all essentially the same thing. Also, if it is the case that without context, rosary refers to the Catholic variety, then this is only because Catholic rosaries are more widely known. --WikiTiki89 10:27, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- I take it you're deliberately being a bit hyperbolic. Would a merged sense then be the Catholic definition "or similar for other religions"? I guess I could live with that. It must have been a mindset whose context was strictly Catholic that I recalled from childhood. In fact, I do feel the proposal makes sense since the initial use of rosary as such probably did intend the Catholic meaning but metaphorically applied it to some other item, and it's just become common enough to where it isn't metaphorical anymore. But while Jews must believe Catholics to be praying and brown sugar to be sweet, I'd think there are still people who would say that these items aren't rosaries, even of a different type, so it's still a good idea to highlight Catholicism as predominant for meaning. DAVilla 00:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I have added the other churches WP says use the rosary. Whether this is how the term is used when people, especially those outside those churches, use the term is a matter for attestation. I suspect that it is almost always the Roman Catholic institution that is meant. As a result I think we should delete the third, challenged sense. DCDuring TALK 01:12, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- If we do, then we'll have to replace it with one that covers beads used for other prayers or mantras, such as the mala in Hinduism (as per my comment above). Chuck Entz (talk) 01:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- As it stands, I would be inclined to merge the second and third senses into something like "A string of beads used for counting prayers by members of some religions or denominations, particularly [whichever Christian churches use rosaries]" - because I think that if the meaning is used of other religions it is usually by analogy with the Catholic/Anglican institution (The wikipedia article bout the Hindu prayer beads dosen't use the term rosary at all, though some of its sources do). Also, not entirely related, but I feel that the word "decade" in the first sense is less clear than it could be - It's presumably Catholic jargon for ten identical prayers in a row? Furius (talk) 01:40, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Do folks use rosary to refer to prayer beads in other religions other than as a simile? DCDuring TALK 01:50, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- (after edit conflict) Just to leave no doubt as to use of the term in Hinduism: [[1]]. The prayer-cycle sense is definitely Roman Catholic in origin, and the prayer-bead sense was originally Roman Catholic as well. The question is whether the extension from prayer beads used in reciting the rosary to prayer bead used in reciting any sequence of prayers or mantras with a constant number of repetitions makes it a separate sense. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Understood. Have you actually heard such usage that was not in the nature of a simile? DCDuring TALK 02:16, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Heard it? No. Coincidentally, I took a garden tour at a Hindu monastery in Hawaii on vacation a week and a half ago, where they proudly pointed out their rudraksha trees, but I don't remember them using anything besides mala to describe it. Other than that, rosaries- whether Catholic or otherwise- aren't a common topic of discussion at the Methodist church I go to. But only a handful of the Google Books hits above seem to be similes, though. The w:rudraksha article uses the word in a clearly non-simile sense, though that doesn't count for CFI. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:16, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I had no idea that the term was used to describe other prayer beads. I then don't see how the third sense could be deleted. Perhaps sense 1 and 2 can be combined, though sense 1 is already excessively long for a dictionary entry. The detail about the specific prayers and their number should probably go. DCDuring TALK 03:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- When you say that rosaries are originally Roman Catholic, you need to also consider that Protestant churches were also originally Roman Catholic. --WikiTiki89 09:51, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I had no idea that the term was used to describe other prayer beads. I then don't see how the third sense could be deleted. Perhaps sense 1 and 2 can be combined, though sense 1 is already excessively long for a dictionary entry. The detail about the specific prayers and their number should probably go. DCDuring TALK 03:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Heard it? No. Coincidentally, I took a garden tour at a Hindu monastery in Hawaii on vacation a week and a half ago, where they proudly pointed out their rudraksha trees, but I don't remember them using anything besides mala to describe it. Other than that, rosaries- whether Catholic or otherwise- aren't a common topic of discussion at the Methodist church I go to. But only a handful of the Google Books hits above seem to be similes, though. The w:rudraksha article uses the word in a clearly non-simile sense, though that doesn't count for CFI. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:16, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Understood. Have you actually heard such usage that was not in the nature of a simile? DCDuring TALK 02:16, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- (after edit conflict) Just to leave no doubt as to use of the term in Hinduism: [[1]]. The prayer-cycle sense is definitely Roman Catholic in origin, and the prayer-bead sense was originally Roman Catholic as well. The question is whether the extension from prayer beads used in reciting the rosary to prayer bead used in reciting any sequence of prayers or mantras with a constant number of repetitions makes it a separate sense. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Do folks use rosary to refer to prayer beads in other religions other than as a simile? DCDuring TALK 01:50, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- As it stands, I would be inclined to merge the second and third senses into something like "A string of beads used for counting prayers by members of some religions or denominations, particularly [whichever Christian churches use rosaries]" - because I think that if the meaning is used of other religions it is usually by analogy with the Catholic/Anglican institution (The wikipedia article bout the Hindu prayer beads dosen't use the term rosary at all, though some of its sources do). Also, not entirely related, but I feel that the word "decade" in the first sense is less clear than it could be - It's presumably Catholic jargon for ten identical prayers in a row? Furius (talk) 01:40, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- If we do, then we'll have to replace it with one that covers beads used for other prayers or mantras, such as the mala in Hinduism (as per my comment above). Chuck Entz (talk) 01:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I have added the other churches WP says use the rosary. Whether this is how the term is used when people, especially those outside those churches, use the term is a matter for attestation. I suspect that it is almost always the Roman Catholic institution that is meant. As a result I think we should delete the third, challenged sense. DCDuring TALK 01:12, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I take it you're deliberately being a bit hyperbolic. Would a merged sense then be the Catholic definition "or similar for other religions"? I guess I could live with that. It must have been a mindset whose context was strictly Catholic that I recalled from childhood. In fact, I do feel the proposal makes sense since the initial use of rosary as such probably did intend the Catholic meaning but metaphorically applied it to some other item, and it's just become common enough to where it isn't metaphorical anymore. But while Jews must believe Catholics to be praying and brown sugar to be sweet, I'd think there are still people who would say that these items aren't rosaries, even of a different type, so it's still a good idea to highlight Catholicism as predominant for meaning. DAVilla 00:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- To me squirrels are gray, prayers are Jewish, cars are big, and sugar is white. That doesn't mean we need separate definitions like "sugar: 1. white sugar 2. brown sugar". Of course in Catholicism rosary refers to the Catholic variety, but in the context of any other religion that uses them it refers to that other religion's variety and they are all essentially the same thing. Also, if it is the case that without context, rosary refers to the Catholic variety, then this is only because Catholic rosaries are more widely known. --WikiTiki89 10:27, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Merge 2 and 3. Looking in Google Books for "Buddhist rosary" brings up 3,500 raw hits. --BB12 (talk) 05:34, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Closed as merged. bd2412 T 16:21, 18 October 2013 (UTC)