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#indiewebcamp 2015-02-04

2015-02-04 UTC
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tantek well it's already 124% funded so he's good to go: https://twitter.com/dancounsell/status/562753612116684802
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@dancounsell You guys are freakin' awesome - https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/typed-a-better-blogging-platform is currently 124% funded and it's been less than 24 hours! https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/typed-a-better-blogging-platform (twitter.com/_/status/562753612116684802)
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tantek can anyone tell what his own site uses? http://dancounsell.com/
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aaronpk i think it's Kirby
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aaronpk i may have been quick to jump to that conclusion
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tantek will be interesting when he starts using typed for his own site
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benwerd I was going to say, I think Kirby too (from the feed)
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tantek would it be rude to ask him if he has a selfdogfood ETA?
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aaronpk i would not call it "selfdogfood" if you do ask him
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tantek what would you call it?
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aaronpk but no I don't think it would be rude, something like "wondering when you're planning on running your own website on Typed" or something
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aaronpk just to avoid introducing a jargon term into the question
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tantek also the larger question of a good approach to initial contact outreach
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tantek in other news, via j12t http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/youre-boss-ubos
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tantek definitely on topic j12t :)
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tantek.com edited /UBOS (+257) "dfn, subheads, Features, Articles You're the Boss with UBOS, linky linky" (view diff)
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tantek what is UBOS?
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Loqi UBOS (pronounced You-Boss) is a new Linux distro that aims to make it much simpler to deploy server-side web applications on headless hardware owned by users https://indiewebcamp.com/UBOS
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tantek what is Linux?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Linux" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Linux&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-03/line/1423008869542%29
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tantek what is a distro?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "distro" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=distro&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-03/line/1423008872455%29
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tantek what is a server-side web application?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "server-side web application" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=server-side+web+application&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-03/line/1423008890843%29
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tantek what is a web application?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "web application" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=web+application&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-03/line/1423008896632%29
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tantek what is deploy?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "deploy" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=deploy&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-03/line/1423008904493%29
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tantek what is headless hardware?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "headless hardware" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=headless+hardware&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-03/line/1423008912591%29
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j12t Thanks tantek
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tantek j12t ^^^ lots of jargon in the defintion of UBOS ;)
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j12t Yes. Whoever doesn't understand the jargon is not the right audience for beta1 :-)
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j12t Will attempt to reduce jargon as less skills are required.
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tantek lol
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tantek that's ok - summary stubs for the jargon by clicking the above links would be nice too!
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tantek j12t - the steps to install a web app on your own server is depressing (if accurate)
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tantek "Provisioning a MySQL database" - shudder
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tantek "Installation of a single app can easily take a few hours and usually requires real Linux admin knowledge. " - yeah
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millette s/mySQL/mariadb/ there, fixed it ;-)
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aaronpk ha no
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tantek is glad he doesn't have to "provision a file system"
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aaronpk what? you totally do
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aaronpk there are even several to choose from!
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j12t millette: we actually use mariadb on UBOS
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j12t I didn't talk about file systems, but well, there's always the fun of setting up RAID :-)
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j12t Next version will automate RAID setup as well, and do automatic file system snapshots
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millette j12t, I dumped LAMP (kept L) couple of years ago and happy with that
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j12t millette: it all depends on what you want to do. I for my part don't even want to think about whether it's LAMP or whatever. Just make it work please.
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millette forgive me, I just jumped in with a light pun I don't actually know what is being discussed
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j12t millette: No prob: http://ubos.net/ and today's coverage in Linux Magazine: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/youre-boss-ubos
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j12t s/Magazine/Journal/
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Loqi j12t meant to say: millette: No prob: http://ubos.net/ and today's coverage in Linux Journal: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/youre-boss-ubos
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kylewm j12t: do a lot of people ask for a comparison with CoreOS? it seems like tackling lots of the same problems
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j12t kylewm: some of the same principles, you are right, e.g. make it really small. But target audience and use case very different: CoreOS is for data centers, UBOS is for personal servers
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KevinMarks_ re typed, they do say "We’re in this for the long haul, and will be publishing our own blogs with Typed."
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j12t It's a good comparison for us, because we can point to them as doing "the same thing in the same way" in a different market.
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j12t Of course the actual tech turns out to be different because the use cases are different.
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kylewm ah, cool
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millette j12t, interesting project, best of luck
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j12t thanks, looking for beta testers and contributors :-)
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millette have you talked to the http://freedomboxfoundation.org/ people ?
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j12t Yes I have. We are friends :-)
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j12t Complementary: they have been doing lots of network-level stuff that we haven't but would love to use some day. We have done lots app-level stuff which they haven't.
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tantek great to hear j12t
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j12t Would be a great project to bring some of that to UBOS for somebody ... hint, hint! :-)
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j12t later, gtg
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tantek the prospect of running a small web server from home that's as easy (or easier) to admin as a VPS or shared host is really exciting.
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tantek what is FreedomBox?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "FreedomBox" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=FreedomBox&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-03/line/1423010170407%29
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tantek millette: could you stub ^^^
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millette was tanteked! Is there a t-shirt? ;-)
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millette I can take a minute for that, yes
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bret i might actually try home hosting with the raspi2
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@xtof_fr Quel job-description #POSSEr á @nitot ? coach #indieweb... > http://standblog.org/blog/post/2015/02/03/Goodbye-Mozilla (twitter.com/_/status/562772183643340800)
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millette tantek, is it ok if I mostly copy+paste from their site (where it doesn't sound too much like an ad)?
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millette or is there a prefered format for new pages?
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tantek what is wikifying?
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Loqi wikifying is the practice of putting stuff on the wiki, or something in particular on the wiki https://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/start_a_page
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tantek rather than copy/paste from their site, try to rephrase a definition so it sounds neutral, factual, and uses indieweb terminology when possible (which should then be [[ ]] linked)
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tantek but that's a good FAQ and I will ad it
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tantek s/ ad/ add
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Loqi tantek meant to say: but that's a good FAQ and I will add it
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tantek.com edited /start_a_page (+419) "start FAQ with May I copy paste from another site" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /start_a_page (+8) "toc" (view diff)
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tantek thank for the question millette - now captured: https://indiewebcamp.com/start_a_page#May_I_copy_paste_from_another_site
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robin.millette.info created /FreedomBox (+433) "(prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-03/line/1423010170407)" (view diff)
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millette well my minute is over :-) I will edit more in time, I'm here for the long run.
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tantek millette++
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Loqi millette has 5 karma
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tantek.com edited /FreedomBox (+43) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek what is CoreOS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CoreOS" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CoreOS&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-03/line/1423011008767%29
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tantek kylewm: ^^^ since you asked about CoreOS ;)
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tantek what is RAID?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/RAID
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tantek.com edited /RAID (+61) "dfn, see also" (view diff)
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tantek what is RAID?
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Loqi RAID is an acronym for Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks, a way to protect against disk failure by copying the same data to multiple hard drives https://indiewebcamp.com/RAID
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tantek What is Typed?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Typed" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Typed&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-03/line/1423011177455%29
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tantek KevinMarks ^^^ stub?
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kevinmarks.com created /Typed (+349) "(prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-03/line/1423011177455)" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ What is Typed?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/Typed
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KevinMarks_ fails at <dfn>
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kevinmarks.com edited /noterlive (+1) (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /Typed (+0) "put </dfn> in right place" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ What is Typed?
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Loqi Typed is a proposed blogging silo funded on indiegogo and bring built in Brighton, UK https://indiewebcamp.com/Typed
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tantek.com edited /Typed (+58) "dfn is for the defined term, not the definition itself. see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Typed (+3) "'''" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /CoreOS (+497) "(prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-03/line/1423011008767)" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /FreeMyOAuth (+0) "update foursquare image" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /deployment (+259) "stub quality still, dfn, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /deploy (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /deployment (+211) "articles" (view diff)
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@bennettscience Reading up on distributed social networking with Diaspora. Interesting idea to wrap my head around. #indieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/562791432969547777)
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tantek.com created /announcementware (+240) "stub dfn, with Typed and ind(.)ie phone" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /announcementware (+79) "previous references google search" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /announcementware (+4) "%" (view diff)
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channy.creation.net created /events/2015-02-07-homebrew-website-club-ko (+2163) "Created page with "= <span class="p-name summary">홈브루 웹사이트 클럽 미트업</span> = == 소개 == === 모임 시간 === <span class="dt-start dtstart"><time class="value">2015-02-07..."" (view diff)
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channy.creation.net edited /events/2015-02-07-homebrew-website-club-ko (-8) "/* 홈브루 웹사이트 클럽 미트업 */" (view diff)
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channy.creation.net edited /events/2015-02-07-homebrew-website-club-ko (-184) "/* 장소 */" (view diff)
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tantek whoa ^^^!
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tantek what about https://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club-ko ?
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tantek.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+34) "move Minneapolis to Past Meetings since organizer moved" (view diff)
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channy.creation.net edited /events/2015-02-07-homebrew-website-club-ko (+36) "/* 장소 */" (view diff)
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channy.creation.net edited /events/2015-02-07-homebrew-website-club-ko (+1) "/* 장소 */" (view diff)
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channy.creation.net edited /events/2015-02-07-homebrew-website-club-ko (+138) "/* 홈브루 웹사이트 클럽 미트업 */" (view diff)
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channy.creation.net edited /events/2015-02-07-homebrew-website-club-ko (+321) "/* 홈브루 웹사이트 클럽 미트업 */" (view diff)
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indie-visitor *smoke bomb*
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snarfed evening indieweb!
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 2 days, 3 hours ago: I tried to like this FB photo http://tantek.com/2015/032/f1but got the error message: "Sorry, the Facebook API doesn't support liking pages."
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tantek delayed messages!
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+176) "/* Developer Relations */ New Twitter search API won’t be available to third-party clients" (view diff)
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channy.creation.net created /User:Channy.creation.net (+894) "Created page with "'''Channy''' works for [http://aws.amazon.com Amazon Web Services] as a Technology Evangelist in Korea and has promoted Open APIs & Web standards as a developer evangelist in Dau..."" (view diff)
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channy.creation.net edited /User:Channy.creation.net (+183) (view diff)
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channy.creation.net edited /User:Channy.creation.net (+479) (view diff)
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pfefferle good morning indieweb
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KevinMarks Good morning pfefferle
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@adamprocter Might try and do something with webmentions api and LEDs today if I can get it to recognise rel=me (twitter.com/_/status/562885703613550595)
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pfefferle KevinMarks good morning :)
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@kevinmarks @hyper_linda try https://withknown.com/ - like tumblr, but open source and open web friendly #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/562927578353508353)
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@haverholm @tokeriis Velkommen til (den relative) frihed, Toke! Var IndieWeb-modellen mÃ¥ske en løsning for dig? http://Indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/562947234380414976)
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@haverholm @infonauten Som netop sagt til @tokeriis: http://indiewebcamp.com er et spændende, åbent alternativ med mange forskellige muligheder. (twitter.com/_/status/562948062528950274)
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@kevinmarks Yes, @anildash we need to teach the government about http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE - use the silos, point to the source (twitter.com/_/status/562953476117131265)
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Loqi [bridgy] Anil Dash replied '@kevinmarks that's already default policy in many places, and the common way of complying with the Presidential Records Act.' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (https://twitter.com/anildash/status/562954005576683522)
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Loqi [bridgy] Todd Barnard favorited a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/562953476117131265)
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@adamprocter Anyone see a reason why rel=me for webmentions.io is not picking up links on http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=http%253A%252F%252Fadamprocter.co.uk #indieweb #webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/562967126970232832)
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Loqi [mention] http://haverholm.com/2015/02/04/my-advice-to-anybody-wanting-to-quit-facebook/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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@kevmccord Lots of interesting custom tables (aka Pages) are added to #ministryplatform databases by @ThinkMinistry churches! #ownyourdata #ChMS (twitter.com/_/status/562975057048502274)
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GWG Good morning
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pfefferle good morning GWG
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GWG Good morning Pfefferle.
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GWG How are things?
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pfefferle a bit stessy… need to finish an indieweb article today
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GWG Good luck.
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GWG What is it about?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "it about" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=it+about&summary=%28prompted+by+GWG+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-04/line/1423060788618%29
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pfefferle indieweb in general
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pfefferle it is for a german magazine
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pfefferle they want to focus in indieweb
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GWG I hope it is well received.
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millette focus an issue on indieweb or the magazine itself?
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@mshook POSSE to Twitter description http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_to_Twitter #twitter #posse #indieweb #withknown #explanation #whyto #why .. http://mshook.withknown.com/2015/posse-to-twitter-descriptiontwitterposse_to_twittertwitter-posse-indieweb-withknown-explanation-whyto-why (twitter.com/_/status/562985018558251008)
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Loqi [mention] Michael Shook commented 'POSSE to Twitter description http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_to_Twitter #twitter #posse #indieweb #withknown #explanation #whyto #why ...' on a post http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_to_Twitter (http://mshook.withknown.com/2015/posse-to-twitter-descriptiontwitterposse_to_twittertwitter-posse-indieweb-withknown-explanation-whyto-why)
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pfefferle millette only one issue
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell aaronpk, kylewm we were so overthinking noting that a post was already liked by a user. It won't be up to the minute, but the post itself would "ideally" display the like, when its pulled in you would have that info
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@martinlindner @jweilharter jim groom (der mann dahinter) ist eine schlüsselfigur in der edu-#indieweb-bewegung, eng verbunden mit #openeducation. (twitter.com/_/status/563001177349296129)
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kylewm_ ideally that's true but I subscribe to lots of sites that don't, legacy XML feeds, proxied twitter stream, tantek.com...
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Loqi kylewm_: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 25 minutes ago: we were so overthinking noting that a post was already liked by a user. It won't be up to the minute, but the post itself would "ideally" display the like, when its pulled in you would have that info
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kylewm_ you would have better luck polling the logged in user's unfiltered feed, looking for like posts
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ben_thatmustbeme perhaps that should be something thats an issue for your personal site though, allowing multiple "likes" of the same url
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ben_thatmustbeme so who cares if you like it again]
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ben_thatmustbeme or maybe they want to like it again (bump it back to top)
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kylewm_ well it would be nice to show "Liked" instead of the button
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm, if the person supports deleting you could "unlike" then too
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kylewm_ also lots of sites pull in comments and likes with JavaScript
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kylewm_ unlike would be cool
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ben_thatmustbeme really? javascript?
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kylewm_ webmention.io, webmention.herokuapp.com
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ben_thatmustbeme i was just starting to create a github issue btw, when i posted a reply, the reply field should empty and hide
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millette ben_thatmust, js comments, like https://disqus.com/ I presume
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kylewm_ sgtm
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ben_thatmustbeme WOAH, also if you subscribe to flutterby.com it basically just takes over your feed
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ben_thatmustbeme looks like there are no time-stamps, wonder what the proper way to handle that would be
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kylewm_ yeah... right now it assumes anything without a date was published "now" which will be a pretty good approximation after the initial flood
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh okay, so it does remember when it last polled
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@martinlindner @jweilharter ich (wie die #indieweb-leute) stimme deinen #educhatDE-tweets zu #blogs vollkommen zu. viel spaß mit dem finanzamt. (twitter.com/_/status/563007426887446530)
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bret evanp posted a bunch of user stories for socialwg: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories looks pretty complete
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kylewm.com edited /Woodwind (+518) "/* Itches */" (view diff)
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gRegor` Nice pun with the Woodwind name. :)
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snarfed woodwind++
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Loqi woodwind has 1 karma
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aaronpk good morning
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Loqi aaronpk: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 2 hours, 46 minutes ago: we were so overthinking noting that a post was already liked by a user. It won't be up to the minute, but the post itself would "ideally" display the like, when its pulled in you would have that info
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: yes tantek mentioned that yesterday
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ben_thatmustbeme ah, i missed that
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webgefrickel.de edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+302) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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@adamprocter Pretty sure I have set up webmention.io correctly on adamprocter . co .uk bit feed suggests no mentions even when @_inkubator has mentioned (twitter.com/_/status/563059203913551873)
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@kevinmarks @adamprocter @_inkubator to get webmentions from twitter you need to set up brid.gy as well (twitter.com/_/status/563059578288758784)
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KevinMarks_ hm, socialWG use case? A posts a note containing the word "indieweb" K is notified by a persistent keyword search, and responds to A's post
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aaronpk add it!
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aaronpk we'll see if anyone argues it's out of scope because it might require federation or somethig
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KevinMarks_ heh
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tantek kylewm: lol at being put in a list with legacy XML feeds
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KevinMarks_ these user stories all end in deletion https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories
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tantek there is something tragic about that
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tantek at least realistic, not everything is sunshine and flowers
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kylewm and when pump.io launched and moved everyone over from statusnet, there was no way to delete your account
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kylewm and for a while that was the most requested feature by a lot
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kylewm which has to suck
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KevinMarks_ btw kylewm, do you pin "published" to current time when crawling? (if you don't you may get posts in the future due to timezone issues)
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KevinMarks_ "John realizes he was actually playing the tuba, not the guitar."
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kylewm KevinMarks_: they're all utc... it is still a problem because the feeds are not all polled at the same time
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kylewm so you might get a post from 5 minutes ago and then later poll another feed and get one from 45 minutes ago
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kylewm and i miss it unless i scroll down a bit
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KevinMarks_ "John decides not to post while on ambien next time"
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cweiske tantek, could we talk about the phorkie problem of yesterday a bit? my problem is that there are two use cases (working with the paste vs. embedding the paste) which require different information (working requires edit buttons, while embedding does not. embedding requires a style sheet that's as standalone as possible, the normal phorkie display does not). should this all be expressed in the same HTML code?
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KevinMarks_ this is almost a McSweeney's post https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories
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tantek cweiske if it can all be expressed in the same HTML code, it should be. and it usually can.
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tantek the edit buttons are interesting in particular, as they could also be /webactions which enable the reader to perform edit actions on their own site, and syndicate to phorkie
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cweiske use case for embeds are to embed syntax-highlighted code in your blog. it shouldn't be in the readers way, and buttons would distract
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KevinMarks_ article's that really need a posting date: http://www.nytimes.com/ref/technology/blogs_101.html?src=tp
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm, btw, i had a pull req for woodwind on how to put html first
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ben_thatmustbeme i should be able to tackle the js fix from home sometime
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Loqi it is probable
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cweiske also, embeds have the file name below the code, while it's above on the real phorkie pages
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: i saw it, thanks! will merge and deploy when i have a chance
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gRegor` Interesting numbers/advice from superfeedr: http://blog.superfeedr.com/wh-fetches-our-blog-feed/
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tantek cweiske: there's a lot to be documented/explored for the special-cases of /code posts - and I think the details you point out (for different uses thereof) are important
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gregorlove.com created /Superfeedr (+134) "stub" (view diff)
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kylewm gRegor`: that's super interesting
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willnorris allow me to introduce the newest (and most certainly the youngest) member of the indie web: https://gabenorris.com/
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Loqi willnorris: snarfed left you a message 3 weeks, 6 days ago: hi! quick question: bridgy is hitting the G+ API daily courtesy quota, and i'd like to request a bump, but i'm a bit scared to bring any attention to it. do you have any feeling for whether the G+ team would be ok with bridgy, or whether they'd ban hammer it? (i'll ask other friends there too, but you have the most direct experience. :P details: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/22 )
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gRegor` What is Superfeedr?
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Loqi Superfeedr is a feed API that supports PubSubHubbub https://indiewebcamp.com/Superfeedr
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gRegor` ^ Feel free to expand
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snarfed willnorris: ignore that, we're fine w/g+ quota now
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snarfed more importantly, congratulations!!!
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gregorlove.com created /superfeedr (+24) "r" (view diff)
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willnorris thanks :)
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gRegor` indiewebkids++
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Loqi indiewebkids has 1 karma
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gRegor` Nice illustration on that page, and congratulations willnorris!
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KevinMarks_ congratulations Will
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willnorris he’s about 15 hours old, and already has level 6 security on http://indiewebcamp.com/https :) A little ways to go on indiemark, since he can’t easily do indieauth without any profiles anywhere
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gRegor` Haha
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willnorris err, level 5? whatever it is
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willnorris favorite commit ever: https://github.com/willnorris/gabenorris.com/commit/a4cee75c5ba60a2be1c76b1e5156c5841cebb9cc
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KevinMarks_ great parenting there, getting his domain so soon. my boys were teenagers before I bought them domains
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KevinMarks_ love the xfn "met"
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benwerd That's awesome!
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benwerd willnorris: congratulations!
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willnorris that was my favoriate part of the commit as well :)
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snarfed +1 to preemptive domains for kids. :P i haven't done nearly as much with http://brookebarrett.org/ though
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KevinMarks_ my contribution: http://www.kevinmarks.com/myfirstwebsite.html
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@junebre Hørt om IndieWeb? http://junebre.blogspot.no/2015/02/hrt-om-indieweb.html (twitter.com/_/status/563075742310080512)
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KevinMarks_ I do wonder if choosing baby names these days involves a lot of use of whois
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willnorris we certainly didn’t chose a name because of domain availability, but I did preemptively buy quite a few domains for names we didn’t end up choosing
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willnorris s/chose/choose*/
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Loqi willnorris meant to say: we certainly didn’t choose* a name because of domain availability, but I did preemptively buy quite a few domains for names we didn’t end up choosing
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willnorris might hang on to them for a few years in case we have a second
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tantek congratulations willnorris!!!
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cweiske.de uploaded /File:phorkie_embed.png "Source code from a paste on [[phorkie]] embedded in a HTML page"
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@adamprocter @barryf made sure Ive turned on bridg.y (twitter)webmentions.io stuff just on homepage but still broke/test just says web mention queued :( (twitter.com/_/status/563078612715573248)
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KevinMarks_ http://junebre.blogspot.no/2015/02/hrt-om-indieweb.html looks liek the beginnign of a Norwegian translation fo the homepage
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KevinMarks_ but what is that logo?
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cweiske.de uploaded /File:phorkie_paste.png "Paste display in [[phorkie]]"
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cweiske.de edited /code (+1010) "add source code embedding" (view diff)
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kylewm KevinMarks_: looks like it's from http://www.indieweb.co.nz/
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KevinMarks_ hah, oops
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kylewm "visually similar" images on google includes the indiewebcamp logo, and a picture of tantek's face
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kylewm which are not particularly visually similar...
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cweiske.de edited /git (+225) "/* POSSE */" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: got another 403 forbidden error from Bridgy Publish trying to like a FB post (photo in this case) http://tantek.com/2015/035/f1
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kylewm tantek: tracking https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/350#issuecomment-72775052
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tantek whereas this worked: http://tantek.com/2015/035/f2
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kylewm tl;dr it's not reliably possible to get the facebook ID of a post from its permalink URL
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kylewm as far as we can tell
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tantek dang
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KevinMarks_ hah, I didn't know about .web tld http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.web
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tantek waits for .www tld and then the mad rush to setup com.example.www
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tantek and all the other reversed domain hiearchy examples in the wild or in use in systems like com.apple.*
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KevinMarks_ moc.elpmaxe.www
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KevinMarks_ there's a webhooks meetup: http://www.meetup.com/API-Meetup/events/220288278/
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk, kylewm the question of how to display a like button in a reader is an interesting one.
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tantek as noted, a reader should display (at least the presence of) the likes (responses in general) on a post
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tantek at a minimum it can retrieve these from the post permalink itself
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tantek secondarily it can query its own cache of posts to see if any of them are "likes" (etc.) of a particular post, and display those as well
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ben_thatmustbeme It in that case referring to the reader
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tantek right
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, so the reader knows if you like from within the reader, the reader knows you liked a post, if the post is displaying it
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tantek the challenge you're running into with a "like" button is the variety of possible states it could display
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tantek step one - list all those states
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tantek step two - figure out a UI for them
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ben_thatmustbeme 1, post is liked by user and post is displaying like, post is liked by user and post is not displaying like, post is not liked by user
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ben_thatmustbeme i only see those 3 states
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tantek there are more, based on all the questions you and aaronpk have already asked
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ben_thatmustbeme well, i suppose there could be "user has not liked the post but it is displaying on the post" if a like was deleted, but i think for the current implementation we are leaving out removing likes
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tantek "liked" - a reader for example can know that you *have* liked something, via its own cache, or a post claiming you've liked something, with a link to the permalink of your like post (verifiability of a like)
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tantek then there are all the substates of where a post doesn't show that you've liked it
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tantek of which there are several possibilities
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tantek - post does not show likes
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tantek - post has not "approved" your like (moderation of responses)
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, but i don't know that we really need to know the process of a external site, those two don't matter to us
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tantek - post has not received a like from you
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tantek (i.e. webmention fail of somesort)
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tantek - you have not liked the post
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tantek the possibility of ambiguity is important
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ben_thatmustbeme well i think it comes back then to the only way to really know that state is to poll the user's own site (assuming it stored the status of the webmention)
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tantek i.e. the reader may know that you've *tried* to like a post (either via a like post of yours the reader has cached), or via the reader's own "like" button.
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tantek such a "pending like" is something to indicate in the UI
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tantek so the user doesn't bother trying to re-like something
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, personally, i don't consider a like "pending" once i have posted it publicly, the site i'm liking aggregating it or not is another issue
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ben_thatmustbeme but yes, all of this is intended to stop the user trying to re-like something.
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KevinMarks_ so states are 1. not liked 2. like sent by micropub 3. like confirmed by reading users site 4. webmention sent to liked site 5. webmention accepted by liked site
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KevinMarks_ you need that order or the webmention won't succeed
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek is pointing out that there is a lot of drill down in to 4.
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KevinMarks_ so there are 4 pending states there
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ben_thatmustbeme also 6. like displayed on liked site
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tantek the key is to capture the states which are actionable by the user
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tantek 1. not liked = user can try to like the post
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tantek 2. user liked in reader, reader posting via micropub to user's site
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tantek 2a. reader posting via micropub succeeded (if failed, same as 1)
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tantek 3. user has a like of the post on their own site
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@adamprocter I think my webmentions may also be working now :D oh no now I have to connect this json to my Arduino now #st4i (twitter.com/_/status/563095959622938624)
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tantek 4. reader has sent a webmention from user's site to post
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Loqi !calc 4. reader has sent a webmention from user's site to post
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tantek 4a. webmention accepted
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tantek 4b. or webmention rejected
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tantek 5. liked post itself shows a like from the user
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tantek (1) is difficult to know "for sure"
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ben_thatmustbeme do you think 4b. should be broken down?
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tantek possibly
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ben_thatmustbeme rejected vs failed
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tantek we should collect/document that at least
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tantek from a user-perspective, I think there are four states
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ben_thatmustbeme although is that more an issue of the negotiation/retry on the site side, not something the reader should ccare about
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Loqi +1
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tantek 1. user has not liked that post
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tantek 2. reader does not know if user has liked that post
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tantek 3. reader knows user has *tried* to like that post, but can't confirm it on the post
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tantek 4. reader sees that user has liked the post
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tantek (1) could be an empty heart/star
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tantek (4) could be a red/gold heart/star
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tantek and the hard part is figuring out the inbetween
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ben_thatmustbeme (3) a yellow / half and half
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tantek (2) could be a gray filled heart / star (gay indicating unknown)
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tantek (3) could be some form of half red/gold, either spatially, or dithered / colortone.
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tantek between the "gray" and the red/gold heart/star
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ben_thatmustbeme we had been trying to figure out a way to be able to clarify (2) into the other groups, which is where things get complex
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: probably worth documenting the problem now in a "Brainstorming" section on /reader
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ben_thatmustbeme agreed
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ben_thatmustbeme perhaps we can just insert chat link for now
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ben_thatmustbeme actually i don't think (1) and (2) make sense
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tantek I think they're quite important to distinguish
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ben_thatmustbeme the reader cannot know for sure that the user has not liked that post without knowing for sure that a user has liked that post
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tantek right!
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tantek hence the simplest like button implementation is gray filled
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tantek assume reader knows not
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, so start at (2)
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tantek exactly
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tantek and the implement the states in order of easiest to hardest
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ben_thatmustbeme then try to determine some way (poll site for more info) then you can say 1 or 3
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tantek note that any indie post with webactions has this same proble
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tantek s/proble/problem
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Loqi tantek meant to say: note that any indie post with webactions has this same problem
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tantek e.g. I have an (empty star) Like button on my notes: http://tantek.com/2015/033/t1/disable-flash-vulnerability-zeroday
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tantek but probably should be a light gray filled star to indicate the lack of knowledge of whether the post has been liked or not
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ben_thatmustbeme same for Repost
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tantek that's already gray filled, as is reply
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ben_thatmustbeme i mean in general, repost would be something you would have a set of states for
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tantek all of which *could* be colored solid if the site knew the reader had done that action already
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ben_thatmustbeme or would repost make sense to be something you would do more than once?
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ben_thatmustbeme the so-called "Bump"
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tantek what do silos do?
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tantek bump is something else
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tantek like a weak form of pin
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tantek e.g. repost in Twitter, retweet, is a toggle
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aaronpk this is gonna take a while to catch up on from the logs
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tantek if you retweet something, then click the colored in retweet button, it gives you the option to unretweet (confirm), which deletes the retweet post from your timeline, and resets the button to gray.
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tantek whereas in FB/G+ if you "share" something (their name for "repost"), it's not clear if you can unshare it (besides explicit deletion), or if you can reshare it
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tantek in twitter you can only reretweet something if you've unretweeted it
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tantek however reply is different - as it certainly makes sense to reply to a post more than once with different replies
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tantek though a reader that *knew* you'd replied to a post could show you your previous reply / replies if any before opening a text box to write a new (another) reply.
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tantek none of this is unique to a reader BTW
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tantek all of these problem / challenges apply to *any* display of webactions buttons
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tantek whether in a reader, or on a post permalink
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: perhaps capture this in a new "button states" subsection in (at the end of) the http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#Brainstorming section ?
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tantek noting it's applicability to readers and permalinks?
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KevinMarks_ so map these to stages in the twitter heart icon?
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tantek twitter does not heart
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tantek though the comparison to twitter is a good one, as wherever you display an embedded tweet, assuming you load/run Twitter's JS, the embedded tweet shows the webaction buttons in a state reflecting what the (logged in) user has done with them.
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tantek indieweb posts should work the same way
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tantek whether on their post permalink page, or when embedded inside another site (in a quote, in a reader etc.), if they have webactions buttons, those buttons should reflect the user's interaction if any with the post.
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KevinMarks_ the animates star thingy they do on ios
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ben_thatmustbeme i'll try to update tonight, heading home now
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KevinMarks_ https://twitter.com/reubenarmstrong/status/558973234809671680
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@ReubenArmstrong The new Twitter favourite icon animation for iOS is great. Via @design by @bwdds https://twitter.com/design/status/555829416694005760/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/558973234809671680)
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KevinMarks_ more canonically: https://dribbble.com/shots/1884504-Twitter-Fav?list=users&offset=0
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KevinMarks_ this is iOS only
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tantek BTW - ben_thatmustbeme - what NOT to do if the user clicks a fully red/gold heart/star - display an error like "You are not allowed to do that." or "An error occured" and "Try reloading the page". (i.e. what Twitter does if you try to favorite something that's already favorited)
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@kirilind Doc Searls on UBOS, the OS for your home server #indiebox #ownyourdata http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/youre-boss-ubos https://kirilind.me/2015/doc-searls-on-ubos-the-os-for-your-home-server (twitter.com/_/status/563104554229989376)
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tantek notes that there is no mention of "tag" on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories
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aaronpk oo do we need to add some tagging use cases?
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tantek SWAT0 has person tagging
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tantek we could use broader tagging, hasthtagging, location tagging
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kodumulo http://kodumulo.withknown.com/2015/saluton-kaj-bonvenon
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aaronpk oh my
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aaronpk accidentally ran that through google translate and read it in german
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benwerd adds "esperanto translation of UI" to list
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KevinMarks_ I asked for norwegian first: http://junebre.blogspot.no/2015/02/hrt-om-indieweb.html