Talk:Q191

Change population to 1 May 2015 data. -Mardus (talk) 09:21, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To be added: https://rm.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia Benriac (talk) 22:44, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Without any discussion or reading even the French Wikipedia article, one guy decided to turn the pre-occupation Estonian Republic into a separate legal entity. French Wikipedia: "Partie intégrante de l'Empire de Russie mais conservant une minorité dominante germano-balte, le pays accède à l'indépendance lors de la révolution russe de 1917. Pendant la Seconde Guerre mondiale (1939-1945), l'Estonie a été contestée et occupée à plusieurs reprises par l'Union soviétique et l'Allemagne. L'Estonie indépendante sera finalement incorporée à l'Union soviétique en juin 1940, conformément au pacte germano-soviétique d'août 1939. Après la perte de son indépendance de facto, les représentants diplomatiques et le gouvernement en exil ont préservé la continuité de jure d'Estonie. En 1987, la révolution chantante pacifique contre la domination soviétique a abouti à la restauration de l'indépendance de facto le 20 août 1991." (My bold.) The whole reestablishment of Estonian independence was based on the concept of legal continuality (unlike in France, which might be confusing our Lone Ranger), according to which there is just one Republic of Estonia based on the 1920 treaty between Estonia and Soviet Russia; this interpretation has been accepted by most countries, except Russia, and the difference between two interpretations has quite concrete difference in results (citizenship, territorial claims, etc). Hence, such changes are very much a political issue, in addition to a practical issue (e.g., no one in Estonia would normally have the idea to start marking two separate citizenships for people who were citizens of Estonia both before and after the Soviet occupation, so this is legal reinterpretation is going to create a major mess in Wikidata). Unfortunately, I don't have neither time nor energy to discuss the international law here in length, so I'm just indicating a potential problem. --Ehitaja (talk) 11:25, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I have read it, don't worry. I am aware there has been Estonian restoration of Independence (Q16631950). So what? Wikidata is not a juridical database ; there happen to be two separate wikidata items, even if Estonia has juridically been considered as starting in 1918, and even if Estonia 1918 == Estonia 1991. These two Wikidata items cover different topics and different time frame, with different inception (P571)and dissolved, abolished or demolished date (P576). Feel free to add a said to be the same as (P460) to Estonia (Q191) and Interwar Estonia (Q2174038). Bouzinac ^{💬●✒️●💛} 12:22, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see a problem of including several inception dates, depending on the POV. --- Jura 12:29, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OKay but someone, perhaps another lone ranger... decided to revert my edits without discussing... Cheers. Bouzinac ^{💬●✒️●💛} 22:24, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I won't dispute the exquisite logic of "there is a separate item for a historical period, so it must have been a separate state, too". Besides, it is a very efficient way for producing exclamation marks stating that, e.g., all citizens of Estonia before 1991 must be reclassified and nobody could be a citizen of Estonian 1940-1991 (as these two items now won't cover that period). There are items describing, e.g., the exile government which now have no state to be connected to, etc etc. But I'm happy to leave sorting out all that mess for someone else. --Ehitaja (talk) 12:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But in fact these are different entities. They have separate governements, different people, and (but I should check) some difference in territory. --Infovarius (talk) 16:43, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why you are focusing about nationality : Wikidata is not a juridical database nor it is a reference to help get and print a passport. Wikidata is not obliged to follow Estonian laws. However I can understand it's a sensitive issue inside Estonia, what I don't understand is why it is sensitive here on Wikidata : it's a purely computer database. Whilst my grand parents were born in French Third Republic (Q70802), they are of France (Q142) nationality, it's a simple fact. Did you mean that anyone born and deceased inside Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic (Q130280) was automatically considered Estonia (Q191)? For instance that guy Ülo Kiple (Q16403221) whilst Estonia (Q191) did absolutely not exist. Anyway, if you wish to absolutely state Estonia 1918 == Estonia 1991, then you should remove historical country (Q3024240) and sovereign state (Q3624078) from Interwar Estonia (Q2174038), as, according per your own sole logic, there should be only one Estonia state. Bouzinac ^{💬●✒️●💛} 15:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Was French Third Republic (Q70802) an independent state or a historical period of France (Q142)? How to distinguish? --Infovarius (talk) 16:43, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on point of view. By the times of Léon Blum (Q18434), Neville Chamberlain (Q10664), etc, it was an independent state with a specific form of government (Q1307214), state territory (Q28692710). So if you want to query any states existing in 1930, French Third Republic (Q70802) is more legitime to appear than France (Q142). Another example is Alsace–Lorraine (Q155144) not being French Third Republic (Q70802) from 1871 to 1919. Anyway, no one is stunned by the Ülo Kiple (Q16403221) problem ?

Another thought : should'nt we use items like Estonians (Q1147273) instead of countries to help type inside country of citizenship (P27)? Bouzinac ^{💬●✒️●💛} 17:30, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The real motivation behind removing 1918 as inception year appears to be once again this misconception that time ranges of some related items need to be mutually exclusive, as was also the case e.g. for Germany and West Germany items lately (Talk:Q713750). Estonia is widely regarded as over 100 years old county, and not only in (international) law. Even if it was only in legal context, then I still don't see what this "not a juridical database" claim has got to do with anything as juridical statements aren't excluded from Wikidata really.

As for Estonian citizenship between 1940–1991, it wasn't revoked for those who had it before 1940. Also in line with state continuity of the Baltic states (Q7603672) and effective law, those born after 1940 to Estonian parents, also abroad, were still entitled to Estonian citizenship, even if a certificate about it was never issued. Moreover, internationally Estonian citizenship had limited recognition after 1940, and throughout the occupation the Consulate General of Estonia in New York issued documents, including passports, to Estonian citizens. Hence this constraint is misleading rather than useful.

The main problem with country of citizenship (P27) appears to be that this information usually isn't available in public sources, and in most cases this statement probably has been added by simply making a guess, not based on explicit information in a source. Regarding Q1147273 as P27 value, I don't see how to justify this, as far as this property is explicitly for a country. 2001:7D0:81DA:F780:1D57:C5EC:9C07:2F0 11:51, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BTW at Q96#P571 we tried to structure various possible dates. --- Jura 11:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://w.wiki/pja : if you look inside that query (that checks any sovereign state existing by 1941-01-01) you will find Estonia (Q191). Isn't it absurd? Bouzinac ^{💬●✒️●💛} 21:39, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, why? As far as I can see, only this query itself is inadequate. If necessary then in this item it can be specified that Estonia didn't have sovereignty throughout its entire existence. 2001:7D0:81DA:F780:1D57:C5EC:9C07:2F0 11:51, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Estonia as a state has never stopped de jure, as its government-in-exile fulfilled its duties outside Estonia during the Soviet occupation. There can be statements of independence, such as the first and second period of independence, though it should be possible to squeeze in the days between when German/Nazi forces left and when the Red Army had not yet arrived. -Mardus (talk) 04:47, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• 24 February 1918, The Constitution of the Republic of Estonia, which embodies the inextinguishable right of the people of Estonia to national self-determination and which was proclaimed on 24 February 1918, ...

Suwa (talk) 22:34, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Just add this to appropriate item. --Infovarius (talk) 20:30, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Inception date isn't appropriate in an item about historical period (see its talk page). As for given source, in form of a declaration in a law text, it probably isn't an ideal source, but it should be easy enough to find other sources if necessary and if the claim isn't really trivial enough. 2001:7D0:81DA:F780:1D57:C5EC:9C07:2F0 11:51, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]