Property talk:P138

English: A basic issue with this property is that it is a feature of a word, not of a concept, and is accordingly language-dependent. An example from WD:Bistro is Geneva Lake, usually called "lac Léman" in France :
Français : "Bonjour à tous. Depuis que j'ai découvert cette propriété je ne m'en lasse pas. Cependant elle a une limite d'utilisation. En effet cette propriété dépend principalement de la langue. Par exemple le Lac Léman. Si un anglophone met named after:Genova il aura raison. Mais ce n'est qu'une vérité relative, puisqu'en français le terme lac de Genève est très peu employé. Il doit exister de nombreux autres cas.
--Otourly (talk) 17:05, 27 February 2013 (UTC)"Reply

English: I agree, this property will cause many problems since it refers to the labels of the item and not the item itself.

Français : Je suis d'accord, cette propriété peut causer beaucoup de problèmes puisqu'elle fait référence aux labels de l'élément, et non à l'élément soi-même.

--Gloumouth1 (talk) 12:04, 28 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

English: Another example is Q4127 : Bodensee in German, Lake Constance in English.

Français : Un autre exemple : Q4127 : Bodensee en allemand, Lac de Constance en français.

--Eric-92 (talk) 15:30, 28 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

English: Maybe the qualifiers could help us later: <Q4127> P138 <Q1800901> qualifier [restriction: "in English", "in French"] AND <Q4127> P138 <Q647622> qualifier [restriction: "in German"]

Français :Peut-être que les qualifieurs pourraient nous aider à sortir de l'ornière ultérieurement. <Q4127> P138 <Q1800901> qualifieur [restriction: "en anglais", "en français"] ET <Q4127> P138 <Q647622> qualifieur [restriction: "en allemand"]

--Gloumouth1 (talk) 16:03, 28 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Français:mon opinion - on devrait avoir un item pour l'objet géographique, et un item pour chacun de ses noms : un item pour le lac, un item pour le nom français "Lac de Constance", un item pour le nom allemand "Bodensee" etc... En fait on pourrait -et même on devrait- avoir potentiellement un item pour tous les mots : un item pour "Arbre" plus un item pour "Arbre (mot français)", un item pour "Tree (english word)", un item pour "Baum (deutsches Wort)" etc... Une erreur a été d'importer seulement Wikipédia et pas les Wiktionnaires qui sont aussi un projet qui marche bien. La distinction systématique entre le mot et la chose règlerait bien des ambiguïtés.

English: my opinion - we should have different items for the geographical feature and for each of its names in various languages : with this solution, we would have an item about the lake near Konstanz, but also an item for the French name "Lac de Constance" and an item for the German name "Bodensee" and so on... In fact, we could -we should indeed- have an item for every word in every language : we could have an item for "Tree", the topic of various Wikipedia articles, but also one for "Arbre (mot français)", one for "Tree (english word)", one for "Baum (deutsches Wort)". It was a mistake to import only Wikipedia ; Wiktionaries are generally of good quality and should have been imported too. A systematic distinction between the word and the object would have been possible if we had played it this way from the beginning. Touriste (talk) 17:15, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

English: I think words as items would be a sensible solution in the long term, but we don't know how long it will take to get implemented... A quick remedy might be to consider this property broader (and more vague), i.e., <subject> has in at least one language a name which is named after <object>. --whym (talk) 15:15, 3 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

English: Yes, that would probably be a good idea to say "one of the name in one of the languages", because we currently have Big Ben is named after Elizabeth II, which sounds weird in all languages. Actually, Big Ben was officially renamed Elizabeth Tower after Elizabeth II. Any idea for a concise label ? --Zolo (talk) 19:51, 4 March 2013 (UTC) Or maybe, it will be possible later to do something better, even without wiktionary. For instance, it might be possible to have a name property (type: string), and add a "named after" qualifier to it. --Zolo (talk) 19:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

English: Another problem (quite similar is about the story of town's names for exemple : (2046) Leningrad. Otourly (talk) 20:11, 7 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

English: Definitely. Another very good example. For now, only signifieds have items; maybe signifiers should have items as well (cf. en:Signifier). Touriste could be right. The wiktionary import in wikidata could allow this one day.

Français : Tout à fait, voilà encore un excellent exemple des problèmes que peut soulever cette propriété. Pour le moment, seuls les signifiés ont un élément associé ; peut-être que les signifiants devraient également en avoir un (cf. fr:Signifié et signifiant). Touriste a probablement raison, ce serait la manière la plus propre d'utiliser cette propriété : <signifié> nommé en référence à <signifiant>. Toutefois, importer tous les wiktionnaires, si c'est juste pour cette propriété, ça tient un peu de l'overkill. Il y a toutefois fort à parier qu'on tire bien d'autres avantage d'un tel import.

--Gloumouth1 (talk) 21:02, 7 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

English: another example, Q1054240, named after Alain Aspect only in French.

Français : un autre exemple sympa, Q1054240, que les Français semblent les seuls à avoir nommé en référence à Alain Aspect.

--Gloumouth1 (talk) 12:56, 25 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I also agree that this property should be used at the root level of an element, but only as a qualifier for the (translatable) name of the element itself.

Unfortunately, there's no interface to add qualifiers to names shown the list of translations at top of the page of an element.

This would require some addition there, so that we deprecate its use as a basic property (not even with a language qualifier to restrict it), and only allow it as a qualifier for the basic name property (whose language is explicit and mandatorily present).

Note that even when it will be used as a qualifier for a translated name (in an explicit language), the referenced element may explicitly give a different language (useful to qualify exonyms which are created in a target language with a name whose origin is the name of an origin object as it was in the origin language, but not necessarily the current name of that origin object in the current language), so two qualifiers would be needed under a translated name : "named in referenced to" (P138) and "language"; possibly also a "date" or "period" qualifier when this name was used in that language. Verdy p (talk) 15:37, 23 February 2016 (UTC)Reply

@Otourly, Gloumouth1, Eric-92, Touriste, whym, Zolo: @Verdy p, FischX, Infovarius, VIGNERON:

Français suite à la discussion ci-dessus, je vous propose un sondage afin d'arriver à un consensus sur la manière de gérer les différences entre langues. Le sondage n'est pas encore lancé et je vous ai notifié afin que vous commentiez/améliorez la proposition ci-dessous. Pamputt (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2016 (UTC)Reply

English following the discussions above, I propose a survey in order to find a consensus on how to manage the language differences. The survey is not yet started and I notified you so that you can comment/improve the proposition I did below.

Français : lorsque la langue est spécifiée, à quel élément s'applique-t-elle ?

⟨ Élément A ⟩ named after (P138)   ⟨ Élément B ⟩

l'élément A ou l'élément B ? Par exemple, en allemand, on a

⟨ pencil (Q14674)      ⟩ named after (P138)   ⟨ lead (Q708)      ⟩

ce qui donne « Bleistift » named after (P138) « Blei » ; la langue s'applique donc aussi bien à l'élément de départ (élément A) qu'à l'élément d'arrivée (élément B). Autre exemple,

⟨ Ares Vallis (Q784395)      ⟩ named after (P138)   ⟨ Mars (Q111)      ⟩

ce qui donne «  Ares Vallis » named after (P138) « Άρης, Áris » en grec (et Mars pour la plupart des autres langues). La langue s'applique donc à l'élément d'arrivée (élément B) tandis que l'élément A se nomme ainsi dans la majorité des langues. Un dernier exemple avec nonius (Q192772) (cliquez pour voir).

Anglais : when a language is used as a qualifier, to which item is it applied?

⟨ Item A ⟩ named after (P138)   ⟨ Item B ⟩

Items A or B? For example, in German, there is

⟨ pencil (Q14674)      ⟩ named after (P138)   ⟨ lead (Q708)      ⟩

that gives « Bleistift » named after (P138) « Blei » ; language is valid both for first item (item A) and last item (item B). Another example,

⟨ Ares Vallis (Q784395)      ⟩ named after (P138)   ⟨ Mars (Q111)      ⟩

that gives «  Ares Vallis » named after (P138) « Άρης, Áris » in Greek (and Mars in most of the other languages). Language is than applied to the last item (item B) whereas item A is named like this in most of the languages. A last example with nonius (Q192772) (click on it).

This property should work fine with ships' namesakes. But, probably shouldn't be used for every namesake scenario. So, only use if a namesake can be found within a reliable source. Danrok (talk) 15:24, 20 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

What's the argument against other namesake scenaria? Arlo Barnes (talk) 19:55, 27 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

How to handle items that have had several names durig its liftetime? For example Q1531757 (Globen/Isstadion/Slakthuset metro station)? /Esquilo (talk) 18:51, 26 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Qualifiers: start time, end time --Chris.urs-o (talk) 07:28, 11 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

Also, use the "applies to name" qualifier to help distinguish. Arlo Barnes (talk) 19:55, 27 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

As discussed above, an issue with this proerty is that we do not always not for sure which name it refers to. We now have monolongual-text datatype. Maybe it would make sense to use this property as a qualifier for properties like official name (P1448). For easier data retrieval, we could also make it work both ways (use p528 as a qualifier for name + name as a qualifier of P528), but I think it would be a bit cumbersome. --Zolo (talk) 16:26, 2 September 2014 (UTC)Reply

For example pencil (Q14674) is in German named after lead (Q708) this is different in other languages, how can we handle this issue? --FischX (talk) 00:11, 14 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

One should put qualifier to the statement (with language of work or name (P407), for example). --Infovarius (talk) 21:42, 18 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

HI FischX and Infovarius Should we use language of work or name (P407) or P2439 (P2439)? I naturally used P2439 (P2439) on Ares Vallis (Q784395) (and coming here *afterward* to ask how I should handle it, sorry, my bad). Cdlt, VIGNERON (talk) 16:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

Honestly, I don't know: I don't see a difference between these two properties. --Infovarius (talk) 22:14, 23 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

Recently, a contraint was added to prevent that this was used with Wikimedia list article (Q13406463). As there is no discussion about it and not really a reason why we can't indicate how a given list was named, I removed the constraint. --- Jura 04:56, 15 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

For reason that statement 'entity or event that inspired the subject's name, or namesake' is reversible 'subject's name was inspired to name such entity, the subject's name is namesake for ' we need to create reverse property. This will be used, e.g., for defining subject related toponyms.Avatar6 (talk) 12:36, 13 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

  Support, - Kareyac (talk) 08:59, 28 February 2016 (UTC)Reply

For a discussion of this in 2014/2015, see Wikidata:Property_proposal/Archive/28#it_gave_its_name_to.
--- Jura 09:07, 28 February 2016 (UTC)Reply

'Subclass' should be an approved qualifier. Wikipedia titles are nouns. An item could be named after an adverb, adjetive, verb etc. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 11:07, 23 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

Now that we have lexemes and forms, I think it should be possible somehow to express that Euplocania equorum (Q55541192) is named after equorum (L6830-F8) rather than Equus (Q27022). How could we go about that? --Daniel Mietchen (talk) 23:56, 14 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

I came here with the same question. I wanted to model that Heroku (Q2350702)named after (P138)heroic (L269673)+Heroku (Q2350702)named after (P138)haiku (Q37707) and wasn't able to do so because the property doesn't support this.

Building off of how the constraints of subject lexeme (P6254) are modeled, I would suggest adding subject type constraint (Q21503250)=lexeme (Q111352) (more specifically, property constraint (P2302)subject type constraint (Q21503250)class (P2308)lexeme (Q111352)relation (P2309)instance or subclass of (Q30208840)), and possibly also subject type constraint (Q21503250)=entity (Q35120) (more specifically property constraint (P2302)subject type constraint (Q21503250)class (P2308)entity (Q35120)relation (P2309)instance or subclass of (Q30208840)) to this property. Would this be sufficient to support lexemes as values? Waldyrious (talk) 20:27, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

I came here to add them, but now that I see they are already there, it strikes me it might not be quite the right place to put them, since the property is an "instance of | Wikidata property to indicate a name", which is not true for the tags since they are not Wikidata properties. Or is "OSM tag or key" allowed to apply to merely related concepts? Arlo Barnes (talk) 03:53, 24 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hey, past me. I would say that while this is indeed a Wikidata property, it is also just a property more generically, same as the OSM tags. Arlo Barnes (talk) 19:53, 27 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

Would it be OK to add "kinship to subject (P1039)" to the "allowed qualifiers constraint (Q21510851)"? Like Joseph Jefferson (Q3185137) is maternal grandfather (Q4994791) to Joseph Jefferson Farjeon (Q3810223) 1Veertje (talk) 20:28, 26 July 2019 (UTC)Reply

Why duplicate that you already can get from the father/mother statements?

You can add named after (P138) as qualifier to Q3810223#P735. I don't think Q3810223#P138 is a good idea. --- Jura 18:24, 30 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

I removed that as I'm not sure why it should be added systematically and related questions at Property talk:P5168 remain unanswered. --- Jura 11:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Please see Property_talk:P8338#Use_on_Q6556889#P138 (about "Sons" in (e.g.) "xyz & Sons" and "I" in "How I met your mother"). --- Jura 11:45, 23 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Should there be some restriction of what an item can be named after? Events, places, persons and "other entities" are mentioned in the descriptions, while only places, persons and divine/mythical beings appear in the property examples, thus all of them supposedly having proper names that can be made into words (or new names).

But then I find geographic location (Q2221906) being named after (P138) locus (Q12885571) and relative location (Q23008351), and I'm concerned we may be incubating a djungle of etymology statements where almost any single item may call for anything between one and 300 instances of named after (P138). Isn't this area best left for the lexeme database to deal with (I haven't been there yet, so I don't know how it's doing)?

Should I ping someone, or do I just leave my question here for any interested bystander to attend to? --SM5POR (talk) 17:34, 2 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I agree with SM5POR both in terms of the substance of their post, as well as being afraid to touch anything here. The next such person coming along should feel empowered and boldly make a change. --Matthias Winkelmann (talk) 12:25, 3 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

The property used to have an erronous label, it was "nombrado por" (which means "named by") and I've changed it to "lleva el nombre de", this second expression is a little bit more usual and can apply to both objects and people, although I am open to suggestions. Let me know what you think Silva Selva (talk) 12:07, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply