8000 some roman numbers are not well pronounced as roman numbers · Issue #12052 · nvaccess/nvda · GitHub
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some roman numbers are not well pronounced as roman numbers #12052

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jacobchawala opened this issue Feb 9, 2021 · 9 comments
Open

some roman numbers are not well pronounced as roman numbers #12052

jacobchawala opened this issue Feb 9, 2021 · 9 comments

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@jacobchawala
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Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe.

Some roman numbers are not well pronounced as roman numbers. they are pronounced badly as letters or words. such roman numbers that are badly pronounced include:
I
V
VI
X
XXX
XL
L
LI
LII
LIII
LIV
LV
LVI
LVIII
LIX
LX
LXI
LXII
LXIII
LXIV
LXV
LXVI
LXVII
LXVIII
LXIX
LXX
LXXI
LXXII
LXXIII
LXXIV
LXXV
LXXVI
LXXVII
LXXVII
LXXVIII
LXXIX
LXXX
LXXXI
LXXXII
LXXXIII
LXXXIV
LXXXV
LXXXVI
LXXXVII
LXXXVII
LXXXVIII
LXXXIX
XC
XCI
XCII
XCIII
XCIV
XCV
XCVI
XCVII
XCVIII
XCIX
C
CC
CCC
CD
D
DC
DCC
DCCC
DM
M
MM
MMM

Describe the solution you'd like

they should be well pronounced starting with the word "roman" for example, roman fifty, roman sixty, roman seventy roman eighty, roman ninety, roman one hundred, roman two hundred, roman three hundred, roman four hundred, roman five hundred, roman six hundred, roman seven hundred, roman nine hundred, roman one thousand, roman two thousand, roman three thousand, ..... and so on.

Describe alternatives you've considered

Alternatively, NVDA speech dictionary should be improved to include those roman numbers that are badly pronounced.

Additional context

NVDA pronounce well some roman numbers. Such roman numbers that are well pronounced by NVDA as roman include:
II
III
IV
VII
VIII
IX
XI
XII
XIII
XIV
XV
XVI
XVII
XVIII
XIX
XX
XXI
XXII
XXIII
XXIV
XXV
XXVI
XXVII
XXVIII
XXIX
XXXI
XXXII
XXXIII
XXXIV
XXXV
XXXVI
XXXVII
XXXVIII
XXXIX
XLI
XLII
XLIII
XLIV
XLV
XLVI
XLVII
XLVIII
XLIX
@josephsl
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josephsl commented Feb 9, 2021 via email

@CyrilleB79
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Hi

This seems more something that is managed by speech synthesizer since all speech synthesizers do not pronounce these numbers the same way.

Anyway pronouncing these expressions as roman numbers is a trade-off between:

  • if these roman numbers are frequently used or not
  • if these expressions are also used for something else than roman numbers:

    • For number consisting in only one letter, it is clear that a single letter may be used for something else than roman numbers. E.g. :

      "Press CTRL + SHIFT + L to add a bullet list"

    • Some two or three letter abbreviations may be commonly used. E.g:

      • VI = Visually Impaired
      • XL = extra large (T-shirt size)
      • CD = Compact Disc
      • DC = direct current
      • and probably many other in more specific fields (CCC, DC, MM, etc.)

And it seems to me that synthesizers already try to find the best solution to solve this trade-off as much as possible.

It would be very helpful to know why you need all these combinations to be pronounced as roman number. Real-life examples would really help.
I cannot imagine real life situations where roman number above 30 are used.

@feerrenrut
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Without extra semantics to identify these as roman numerals, it would be a mistake to assume they are. Visual users must identify these as roman numerals based on context.

As requested by @CyrilleB79 please do provide concrete examples of where you run into this as a problem, perhaps there are other solutions we can offer.

@jacobchawala
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jacobchawala commented Feb 11, 2021 via email

@Adriani90
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This could be something that might be handled in a new punctuation category, as I proposed in #11467, a punctuation level for mathematical content or scientific content could be added where all the scientific symbols, greek letters and roman numbers could be pronounced by default according to symbols dictionary and speech dictionary. I guess this would be a category which would be used most often by students, and they would take the benefit of it. At least it would give some more confort in this regard.

If a new category is envisaged, then we could think of adding all the roman numbers to the speech dictionary and assign the mathematical cathegory to them.

@feerrenrut
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The problem is, pronouncing these characters as roman numerals, means that in other situations they will be pronounced incorrectly. For instance reading the news about the Chinese politician Xi Jinping would be pronounced as "eleven Jinping".

Perhaps in the future we could have an earcon that recognizes words / characters with multiple possible substitutions. The user could then explore a menu of the different options and decide which is most appropriate based on the context.

@jnurthen jnurthen mentioned this issue Apr 21, 2021
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@christopherJ-Defra
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christopherJ-Defra commented Sep 26, 2022 •
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I think this is related, but more fixable, but may be down to the speech synthesiser not NVDA.

NVDA appears to read out UNICODE Roman Numerals incorrectly.
For example Ⅲ (Roman Numeral Three) is read out as letter 2 1 7 2
This is extra odd as 2172 is lowercase ⅲ and the uppercase is 2162

I would expect Unicode characters to be read out correctly, and not require contextual interpretation (e.g. Xi Jinping)
ⅩⅠ or Ⅹⅰ should not be confused (by software at least) as the same as Xi

Specifically relevant as "Queen Elizabeth Ⅱ" and "King Charles Ⅲ"

This is using "eSpeak NG" on Windows 10
Using "Microsoft Speech API version 5" or "Windows OneCore Voices" the character is not spoken at all

@mgifford
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This still seems to be a problem:
https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2023/03/unicode-roman-numerals-and-screen-readers/

@Adriani90
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Yet another positive effect of unicode normalization, when this is enabled in NVDA voice settings most of the unicode roman numerals are now read properly on navigation patern greater than word (e.g. up and down arrow, ctrl+up and down arrow).
They are also pronounced properly when using word by word navigation once there is a special character written after the numeral.
However, when reading by character with left and right arrow, the characters are never pronounced properly.
For example
Ⅰ Ⅱ and Ⅲ are pronounced as "I", "I I" and "I I I" on character and word navigation patern, but they are pronounced properly on line by line or paragraph by paragraph navigation, except for roman one. That is always pronounced as "I".
Adding a special character like .,!" after the numerals which are composed of > 1 letter, results in proper pronounciation on word by word navigation.
For example Ⅱ. and Ⅲ. is pronounced properly when ctrl+left and right arrow, but Ⅱ and Ⅲ is not.
Strangely enough, selecting the numerals which are composed of > 1 letters are pronounced properly in any navigation patern.

@LeonarddeR can this be improved somehow?

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7 participants
@mgifford @feerrenrut @josephsl @CyrilleB79 @jacobchawala @Adriani90 @christopherJ-Defra
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