Talk:8 Seconds

I'm not debating that Lane Frost is a subject of 8 Seconds. The issue is that Lane Frost's personal website is not relevant to the subject of the article, which is the movie itself. His website is linked at Lane Frost as it should be. But for the article on the movie based on him, it is not appropriate. Per WP:ELNO #13, external links to be avoided include those "only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article". The subject of this article is the movie, not the person. HalJor (talk) 04:28, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for opening a WP:BRD discussion, HalJor. It's kind of hair-splitting to me. Not a moral issue, though. My take is that if we had too many ELs, that would be one thing, but the other purpose of ELs are for things that we can't use in the article due to copyright, and his site includes photos and such that are enlightening to the reader seeking more information. Montanabw^(talk) 04:35, 6 May 2017 (UTC)Reply

The number of ELs is irrelvant and content on his personal site might be enlightening for someone interested in him as a person, but not necessarily for someone interested in the movie. Would you also consider adding personal sites of the director (for those interested in their other works), the composer (for other soundtracks), or Luke Perry (for whatever reasons)? Choosing which to include among those would he hair-splitting. "Indirectly related" is pretty clear, and the less clutter the better. HalJor (talk) 05:00, 6 May 2017 (UTC)Reply

Where the individual is deceased, hence no profit motive, and the individual was the subject of the film, we have a pretty clear IAR example. Montanabw^(talk) 07:36, 11 May 2017 (UTC)Reply

The purpose of WP:IAR is to improve Wikipedia. I fail to see how keeping the link here improves the site, when it is more relevant at Lane Frost and is a distraction on this page. Further, there could well be a profit motive (deceased or not, as the site itself says the "Lane Frost Brand is Frost Family Owned and Operated") -- the official site in this link has only two primary sections: About, and Store. Since it would appear the primary purpose of the site is commercial, one could argue that the link violates WP:ELPOINTS as well. HalJor (talk) 14:18, 11 May 2017 (UTC)Reply

Actually, as the writer of the article Red Rock, long time bull riding fan, and lately a WP editor, I would like to clarify that the Lane Frost web site is not primarily a commercial site. It also exists to provide the accurate story of Lane Frost. And some accurate information about Red Rock the bull. Who knows his story better than his parents? There's a lot of misinformation out there. I used this web site (and some archival) as a significant source in my Red Rock article. I also plan to update Lane Frost from it. The movie took liberties, as they usually do. My point is the site can provide people with the real story. It has a significant amount of written information, thus not wholly commercial.

Regarding External Links, you'll find that most movie articles follow some unwritten rule that all links are "movie box office sites or other movie sites" such as IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, AllMovie, Box Office Mojo, Metacritic, YouTube trailers, or the movie's official website. They all start with the movie name except the official site, of course. So, someone is trying to make sure this movie follows this same "rule."

See other biopics: I Saw the Light, Pollock, and Big Eyes.

Comparing Lane Frost as being interesting at the same level as to others in the the movie like Luke Perry, the director, the composer, and others, does not make sense. The movie is not about them. It's about Lane and it's not about a fictional character named Lane. For example, if you look up the movie Pollock on IMDB, it states, "A film about the life and career of the American painter, Jackson Pollock." I think that makes it pretty clear that the whole point of the movie is Jackson Pollock. The real person named Pollock. After I watched the movie, I wanted to know more Pollock and I looked him up, and now I appreciate his painting. And if you look up 8 Seconds, it says, "This film chronicles the life of Lane Frost, 1987 PRCA Bull Riding World Champion, his marriage and his friendships with Tuff Hedeman (three-time World Champion) and Cody Lambert." The first sentence tells us who is important in this film. The real person Lane Frost. Not the director or anyone else. dawnleelynn^(talk) 18:54, 11 May 2017 (UTC)Reply

My references to the director, etc. was about what constitutes a valid EL that is in/directly related. I suggest that the subject of the movie is no more directly related to the topic of this article (the movie itself) than those who created the movie or those who appear in it. For movie buffs, the creative talent is often of greater interest than the subject matter, and this article is about the movie. ELs here should be for those seeking more information about the movie. Those seeking more information about Lane Frost can visit his own wikipage, which is quite extensive and already includes the link being debated here. As for the commercial quality of the link, it's hard to ignore that when everything "About" him is given equal weight as everything you can buy (each has their own giant button at the top) and there is an equally giant shopping cart graphic right next to them. HalJor (talk) 21:04, 11 May 2017 (UTC)Reply

My point was that the web site gives equal weight given to information and commercial on the Lane Frost web site, not to say there was no commercial use. I said, basically that it's not just a commercial site. The Lane Frost Brand also has a Twitter and Instagram account where they distribute quotes and historical photographs of Lane Frost and his bull rider companions. So we can move on from that point, say it's 50/50. In the case of this movie, know your audience, they are athletes, bull riders, and other rodeo folk. They are not movie buffs interested in creative talent. Your comments about movie buffs and creative talent would be better applied to the movie "Pollock." Frost is a rodeo icon that bull riders idolize to this day, the audience cares more about Frost than the movie. I read the policy about External Links. I don't think it says links can only be about the movie per the site falls into rule 3 of WP:ELYES.— Preceding unsigned comment added by dawnleelynn (talk • contribs)

I don't think the issue is worth the bandwidth it's generating. I can see that a standardized format has EL for basically a narrow range of sites related to the film, but I also know that the movie project's WP:LOCALCONSENSUS probably falls under the ArbCom decisio in the infobox wars -- that exceptions can be made on a case by case basis. Here, I see no harm to a single link to a web page that is an RS for the subject's actual life. Montanabw^(talk) 01:12, 14 May 2017 (UTC)Reply