Talk:Palästinalied

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The term "Propaganda" should be adapted, since I don't see any justification for using it. As stated on the German discussion page, I recommend to mention the reference of Walther's piece to the religious conflict concerning the Holy Land, yet one isn't able to back a propaganda interpretation up decently with what the text offers. It is a religious work. Von Hochtraben (talk) 04:36, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect to Dulamans Vröudenton, I don't think even they would go so far as to claim to be "strictly authentic". One can use instruments of the place and time (as inferred from written and pictorial evidence or any surviving instruments), and work from what evidence of performance practice survives, but the term used for that is "historically informed performance", and perhaps it is better suited here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.125.173.143 (talk) 13:23, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I edited this article to include the full text of the poem. Here are my reasons for doing so:

• The German version of this article already included the full text of the poem, so I figured that it would only be fitting if the English article did so as well.
• Before I ever made any changes at all to the article, someone else had already included the first stanza of the poem in such a way that it appeared as though he or she had intentions to include the rest of the poem as well.
• The poem, being only thirteen stanzas long, is short enough that it would be worthwhile to try to include it in the article since the article is, after all, about the poem.
• The original Middle High German text of the poem is in the public domain, meaning there are no copyright implications involved in including it in the article. --Katolophyromai (talk) 2:31, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

After the heroic work of User:Katolophyromai to provide the text and translations, there are some outstanding issues:

1. Given the complexity of the MS tradition and the very varied ways the song has been edited, there's no reason to follow the unsourced statement in the German article and single out the 3rd strophe for sceptical treatment. For a start, it's better attested than the 4th strophe (3 MSS vs 1 MS). In any case, the practice of classifying "unsatisfactory" strophes as not genuine is an outdated editorial approach, and especially in a case like this where the MSS suggest several very different versions were current.
2. The 13th strophe is the questionable one: it only occurs in one very late MSS, where it's the only strophe for this song. Also, it's self-evidently a love song. Spechtler terms it a contrafacture.
3. Given the very varied ways the song has been edited, I would say an indication of the source of this text is needed.
4. Yes, some of the translations are pretty unsatisfactory - it would be good to replace them, and I will try and get round to it. Note that the German translation of strophe 12 is actually of strophe 10 - I'll delete it.

--Pfold (talk) 11:10, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Pfold: I am fine with any changes you think need to be made. Obviously, you are much more of an expert on Walther von der Vogelweide than I am. I definitely agree that this article has some major issues. I cobbled together the English and German translations from a variety of different ones, since different translations I found had different strophes in them and I could not find a single translation that had all of them. It is no surprise that one of them accidentally got repeated. I found the full Middle High German text of the poem on the Turba Delirantium website that is cited in the article as the source for some of the modern German translations. The website belongs to a German medieval reenactment group and the page does not say a word about the surviving manuscripts or the divergences between them, so, obviously, a better, more scholarly source would be preferable. --Katolophyromai (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The article failed to indicate the sources of the individual stanzas. I have inserted a clear distinction of the seven stanzas of ms. A and the nine stanzas of ms. C. The four additional stanzas are still not identified with their source, but they are spurious anyway. The 1907 rhyming translation just gives the seven stanzas of ms. A. There is a rhyming translation of eleven stanzas at lyricstranslate.com (by user "SaintMark", with the comment "based on the other english translation by user 'Leherenn' i put the missing stanzas to a better meter, for better singing") -- but it is probably better not to rely on that (a) for copyright reasons and (b) because a close-to-literal translation is probably more useful for the spurious verses anyway. --dab (𒁳) 11:15, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't it be helpful to have the lyrics in modern German? Temerarius (talk) 17:10, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]