Talk:Drag queen

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Drag queen article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 12 months

This  level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Fashion Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Fashion, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Fashion on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FashionWikipedia:WikiProject FashionTemplate:WikiProject Fashionfashion Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Gender studies Mid‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. To-do list: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles Cleanup : edit to see Collaborate : see /Collaboration Copyedit : edit to see Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender Expand : edit to see Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes Merge : edit to see Notability : edit to see NPOV : edit to see Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia Photo : see Wikipedia requested photographs of gender studies Split : History of feminism Stubs : see Gender studies stubs Translate : see /translation Update : edit to see Verify : Riot grrrl Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention LGBTQ+ studies This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies Men's Issues Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Men's Issues, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Men's Issues articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Men's IssuesWikipedia:WikiProject Men's IssuesTemplate:WikiProject Men's IssuesMen's Issues Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2023 and 15 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Micklepickle01 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Ktrachsel01 (talk) 01:08, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since we are apparently a society of full inclusion, no matter what, I would like to ask that the term cisgender be removed from the article and replaced with heterosexual or straight as I find the above term non inclusive of the rights of heterosexual people. Thank you. 31.126.66.175 (talk) 16:15, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Heterosexual refers to sexual orientation, whereas cisgender refers to gender identity, i.e., same gender identity as your assigned gender at birth. The article should not be updated with the proposed change because these words have different meanings, and we need to follow common usage. Hist9600 (talk) 13:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is most likely a red herring, but in case anyone feels like investigating further: one of the words for 'a costume' or 'an outfit' in Norwegian, Danish and Swedish is

• Norwegian: en drakt
• Danish: en dragt
• Swedish: en dräkt

—suggesting a connection with being 'in costume'.

(Links go to dictionary entries in those languages.)

In German, I think it's Tracht. Not sure about Dutch.

It's perfectly possible,though, that being in drag is unrelated to these. The OED don't mention anything along those lines, for example. (When learning Norwegian, I assumed the words were related, and remembered drakt that way.) Musiconeologist (talk) 16:50, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting theory. Needs a reliable source here. Scottish? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You should point out that trans men can also be drag queens (and not only drag kings) as a performance like the famous Gottmik. 2A01:E0A:5DA:C520:C076:CBBE:592B:1EBF (talk) 15:11, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it obvouls that this whole section belongs in the arcticle Drag (entertainment), not here? SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:36, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I rolled back 2 edits where an image had been added here as a separate section, but with no explaiation or request, SergeWoodzing (talk) 08:38, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SergeWoodzing I just created a quick article on Female impersonation (needs expanding) which makes an important separation from drag (entertainment), although it might be better to move it to gender impersonation. In general, I think we need to do a better job differentiating between gender impersonation and drag because they aren't exactly the same thing. This book makes a compelling distinction where drag is defined as different than female impersonation because of its specifically queer identity: French, Sarah. Staging Queer Feminism. Palgrave Macmillan UK. p. 94. ISBN 9781137465436. We need to recognize that much of what is being presented here as "drag history" isn't exactly drag history but the history of female impersonation which for the majority of history looked nothing like the drag queens of LGBTQ culture. For one thing, female impersonators were predominantly cisgender heterosexual men (at least as far as the public knew) through most of history, and they were taking on female characters in plays and comedy sketches performed for heteronormative audiences as opposed to adopting/developing a drag persona and identity for a queer audience. They also were predominantly performing in works with little to no queer subtext, and in fact there was a concerted effort to deliberately dissociate from queer identity in most cases. Minstrel shows, vaudeville, burlesque, early films for the most part were presenting female impersonators as heteronormative, although undoubtedly some of the performances were queer coded and performed by queer artist who were closeted in some instances. (and those are exactly the types of examples we should be highlighting when looking at drag's roots within the broader subject of female impersonation) In short, I think we should move much of this history to the female impersonation article, and really focus in on the queer identity aspect of drag within this article . 4meter4 (talk) 05:40, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not undertand the use of the word queer in these contexts and decided years ago not to try to figure it out. I have had a number of drag queens as friends and in shows I worked on. Some of them are against the use of that word, others are not. So, proceed and do what you feel is good for Wikipedia, and we'll let others weigh in! All I ask is that you proceed with caution. It's still a controversial word, believe it or not. Best wishes, --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:06, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SergeWoodzing I hear you, but I think its equally controversial to tie up all female impersonation up into drag. Dame Edna Everage for example really shouldn't be in the drag (entertainment) article because Barry Humphries insisted he did not do drag and was not a drag queen and was merely an actor performing a character. When we get down to it, drag queens are an intimate part of and are inextricably linked to LGBTQ culture, and they perform a unique social/cultural role in the LGBTQ community. Drag queens work in gay bars and in nightclubs, and the ball and pageant systems were built around a gay and transgender sub-culture. Drag queens also have their own subculture not shared with female impersonators with words unique to their world (see Drag Race terminology). The drag queen is a performer attached to a certain socio-cultural and even political setting (the gay rights movement was influenced by drag queen activists). Drag queens are involved in pride parades, and LGBTQ rights protests. That's very different than the long history of female impersonators working in minstrel shows, vaudeville, burlesque, plays, musical theatre etc. for predominantly straight audiences, and by mainly straight men who never performed in gay clubs, participated in the ball or pageant drag scene, or engaged with drag queen culture (ie. the ball scene, the LGBTQ nightlife scene, the linguistics/language of drag, etc.). Female impersonation is not attached to a particular socio-cultural group, whereas drag is. That said, there is always going to be some overlap between the two, and there will inevitably be certain performers that do not fit neatly anywhere or bridge the divide. It's a very difficult thing to concretely define. Best.4meter4 (talk) 22:06, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that while most drag queens throughout history have been gay men, many have also been gender-nonconforming or trans women. One only has to visit a drag show or look at the list of queens who have appeared on Rupaul's Drag Race (at least 20) to see this is the case today, and there are many famous historical drag queens who can be understood as trans women such as Marsha P. Jonson and Crystal LaBeija. I don't disagree with the word "usually" but a more accurate and useful sentence for readers unfamiliar with this topic might be "Historically, drag queens have usually been gay men or trans women, although in recent years feminine drag has grown in popularity among performers of other genders, including trans men (who historically often performed as drag kings)." Rynd (talk) 00:50, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think that’s factually accurate. The open acceptance and inclusion of trans women in the drag scene is a relatively recent thing (as in only the last seven years or so). Prior to 2017, drag queens went out of their way to differentiate themselves from transgender women; partly because LGBTQ culture for a long time associated the trans community closely with sex work and drag artists felt a need to protect their image and dissociate themselves from the trans community for this reason. (There’s academic research on this.) That’s not to say that there weren’t some trans women working as drag queens but many were not free to be open because of transphobia in the drag community.

There was controversy surrounding early trans performers on Drag Race and some of the transphobic comments were made by RuPaul and other members of the show’s production team. RuPaul even argued they shouldn’t be allowed to compete because they weren’t drag queens. (This was very much how things were until RuPaul's Drag Race season 9 when Peppermint (entertainer) became the first openly trans woman allowed to enter the competition; a decision which was not widely approved of at the time. It was controversial). Additionally, terms like non-binary or gender non-conforming are relatively new paradigms. We need to be careful to not superimpose 21st century worldviews and constructs onto the past when such ideas were not articulated or understood the way they are today. All of this to say, I don’t think it would be accurate to include trans women as holding a prominent place among drag queens historically because they were systematically marginalized and excluded from the drag community until very recently. A drag queen who was openly trans was practically unheard of prior to the 21st century; although trans women commonly competed in the ball scene in their own separate categories which is a different thing all together. It was a gay men only club for the longest time in terms of drag shows and pageants. 4meter4 (talk) 01:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]