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Topic: Foo Dogs

Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions

The tagging situation for the foo dog, or Chinese guardian lion, is messy right now; it currently is implied by three separate variations, the komainu, shisa dog, and shishi dog. All of these are different things, but the border between them - especially between Komainu and Shishi - can be very fuzzy, and they often mean different things in different places - Japanese people will call the actual Chinese guardian lion statues Komainu, for example.

In Japan, they were paired and did look different... but over time they've grown to look virtually identical, often differentiated only by one having its mouth open and one having its mouth closed. Both shishi and komainu are often just called komainu now as a result. Shisa are specifically the Okinawan variation, which can be more distinct... but plenty are only tagged with Foo dog and not all of them are so obvious. The wiki for foo dog also links to the same image twice, which only has one foo dog in it, to differentiate between different possible appearances...

I'm kind of leaning towards the solution being aliasing them all together under one tag, possibly just 'Guardian lion' or 'Guardian lion dog'; this situation is confusing and difficult to navigate, and I don't think most users can be expected to know the difference and tag them appropriately - in part because there often is no difference. This is reflected by the fact that the entry for the Shishi dog (which aren't dogs, they're definitionally lions, that's what shishi means) is actually describing a Shisa dog, and there are possible Shisa in the Shishi tag and vice versa. The biggest issue is that many of the artists drawing them don't know the difference and will call them whatever they want.

Updated

On a related note, why is it foo_dog and not fu_dog? Isn't using the pinyin version more proper?

Foo dog is just more prevalently used in the west. Both of them are improper names regardless.

I also feel the tag shouldn't imply mammal... they can just be statues or can seem completely non-mammalian; their morphology can differ so much depending on the artist.

God, and lion-dog and lion dog are on komainu specifically when they're also applied to regular foo dogs... is there unimplication or unalias work I'd have to do in a BUR, or could I just alias them all away under a new name?

Updated

The bulk update request #10478 is active.

create alias chinese_guardian_lion (0) -> guardian_lion_dog (0)

Reason: No input given, so I'll just try to put this through.

These are the blocked ones.
alias foo_dog -> guardian_lion_dog alias komainu -> guardian_lion_dog alias shisa_dog -> guardian_lion_dog alias shishi_dog -> guardian_lion_dog

EDIT: The bulk update request #10478 (forum #440319) has been approved by @spe.

Updated by auto moderator

opilione said:
These are the blocked ones.
alias foo_dog -> guardian_lion_dog alias komainu -> guardian_lion_dog alias shisa_dog -> guardian_lion_dog alias shishi_dog -> guardian_lion_dog

The reason they're blocked is because the tags you're trying to alias away all have aliases and implications stuck to them. Those have to be removed first.

The bulk update request #10494 has been rejected.

remove alias foodog (0) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove alias foo_lion (0) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove alias fu_dog (0) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove alias fu_lion (0) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove alias lion-dog (0) -> komainu (1184)
remove alias lion_dog (0) -> komainu (1184)
remove alias shisa (0) -> shisa_dog (60)
remove alias shīsā (5) -> shisa_dog (60)
remove alias shīsā_dog (0) -> shisa_dog (60)
remove alias chinese_lion (0) -> shishi_dog (52)
remove implication foo_dog (1584) -> mammal (3523859)
remove implication foo_dog (1584) -> east_asian_mythology (25411)
remove implication komainu (1184) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove implication shisa_dog (60) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove implication shishi_dog (52) -> foo_dog (1584)

Reason: clearing aliases and implications to prepare for merger

EDIT: The bulk update request #10494 (forum #440434) has been rejected by @Opilione.

Updated by auto moderator

opilione said:
The bulk update request #10494 has been rejected.

remove alias foodog (0) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove alias foo_lion (0) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove alias fu_dog (0) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove alias fu_lion (0) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove alias lion-dog (0) -> komainu (1184)
remove alias lion_dog (0) -> komainu (1184)
remove alias shisa (0) -> shisa_dog (60)
remove alias shīsā (5) -> shisa_dog (60)
remove alias shīsā_dog (0) -> shisa_dog (60)
remove alias chinese_lion (0) -> shishi_dog (52)
remove implication foo_dog (1584) -> mammal (3523859)
remove implication foo_dog (1584) -> east_asian_mythology (25411)
remove implication komainu (1184) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove implication shisa_dog (60) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove implication shishi_dog (52) -> foo_dog (1584)

Reason: clearing aliases and implications to prepare for merger

You can do a direct alias request to avoid unaliasing/unimplying (but if you don't want to move the implications to the new tag this is ok too)

I tried to do that and was told to remove them; apologies if I'm messing it up, I haven't touched BURs in years

The bulk update request #10499 is pending approval.

remove alias foodog (0) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove alias foo_lion (0) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove alias fu_dog (0) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove alias fu_lion (0) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove alias lion-dog (0) -> komainu (1184)
remove alias lion_dog (0) -> komainu (1184)
remove alias shisa (0) -> shisa_dog (60)
remove alias shīsā (5) -> shisa_dog (60)
remove alias shīsā_dog (0) -> shisa_dog (60)
remove alias chinese_lion (0) -> shishi_dog (52)
remove implication foo_dog (1584) -> mammal (3523859)
remove implication foo_dog (1584) -> east_asian_mythology (25411)
remove implication komainu (1184) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove implication shisa_dog (60) -> foo_dog (1584)
remove implication shishi_dog (52) -> foo_dog (1584)

Reason: These do need to be removed so that they can be moved to one tag with better implications and aliases.

Wait, I'm not thinking clearly. I want to move them all to one tag. I'm sorry for the trouble of going through this all again, ugh.

opilione said:
I tried to do that and was told to remove them; apologies if I'm messing it up, I haven't touched BURs in years

You're doing fine.

As you already know, BURs usually tend to be better than alias requests in that they're editable, can have more than one line, can be appended to a pre-existing thread, and can do more than alias or imply things. However, alias requests have one plus BURs don't. They don't require an aliased away tag to have all its implications and aliases removed via another BUR first. To be fair, this isn't always a plus as the removal process of a BUR can allow a cleaner realiasing and reimplying of tags than the alias request, especially when one might want to aim those aliases and implications towards other tags. It often depends on how "lazy" you're feeling and whether it's worth it.

clawstripe said:
You're doing fine.

As you already know, BURs usually tend to be better than alias requests in that they're editable, can have more than one line, can be appended to a pre-existing thread, and can do more than alias or imply things. However, alias requests have one plus BURs don't. They don't require an aliased away tag to have all its implications and aliases removed via another BUR first. To be fair, this isn't always a plus as the removal process of a BUR can allow a cleaner realiasing and reimplying of tags than the alias request, especially when one might want to aim those aliases and implications towards other tags. It often depends on how "lazy" you're feeling and whether it's worth it.

Thank you. I'll keep this all in mind!

I went about fixing the issues with the wiki pages that I described previously; even if this is rejected they should be in a more logical and consistent state now, one that's actually useful and properly differentiates between them.