Meeting minutes
I can scribe
New Issue Triage
spectranaut_: The first issue from Scott
… this came out of editor's meeting, triaging old issues and there's an old issue about radio group. This is a broader issue.
… Issue on ARIA #2180 consider loosening requirements for naming certain container elements
… the next issue on html-aam
… Scott already responded
… Does this need further discussion?
keithamus: I can poke at it a little because the reasoning around the other elements is kind of interesting it's something that is regularly authored
… title and meta generally live in the head; I understand that slot is designed to be equivalent of that
… feels weird to prohibit role on ti
… Don't know if this is something this group necessarily needs to champion alleviating that
… or something that HTML should be doing
spectranaut_: Is this something we should talk about in ARIA WG?
… I don't use slot as an element, it probably made more sense in the past if slot was treated as generic instead of nothing space as it's supposed to be
^ scotto
scotto: Need explicit parent and child relationships
scotto: Probably not on us, or could say to HTML to treat this as generic or none
… slot isn't supposed to be used by authors, don't put roles on it, has to be a really good reason to undo that
keithamus: It's totally justified
… what is the use case we would need on slot that couldn't be solved by having the slot going into the appropriate container element
… what problem is this solving to undo intended use of element?
keithamus: I had stickiness around tab list
… and trying to find intersection of API where we have a tab list element, use a slot to provide some of it but otherwise does the sensible thing
… can I customise this and that
… got a bit tricky to manage that
… someone said they wanted to customise this bit and turn it into a slot; a subtle failure carried over and difficult to refactor with all the feature requests
… awkward experience generally; assignment failure so browsers can do more to say don't put roles in slots
spectranaut_: sounds like there's more to discuss
… next item, HTML 545
scotto: This follows from our CSS AM conversation the other day
… we want to spec out the new CSS anchor positioning property to come with defaults
… we don't have spec to put that in until a CSS AIM
… maybe just goes into HTML AIM
… or HTML AIM becomes HTML and CSS AIM
… we need to track it and put it into this spec until there's a better place for it
spectranaut_:
Put an agenda on it^
New PR Triage
spectranaut_:
This is just an editorial for MathML
WPT Open PRs
spectranaut_: There are no open/new ones this week
spectranaut_: About the deep dive, we have one scheduled for next week, 23rd
… aria-notify update
… there's an event in the calendar
… is there any other deep dives to plan?
… James is out for the next month
Deep Dive planning
Thank you!
WAI-ARIA 1.1: Cell and gridcell
spectranaut_: Next issue is an old one, #79 in aria repo
… cell and gridcell issue
… there was a decision to deprecate gridcell once they are treated equivalently
… is there really a need to deprecate, or tell authors to use cell or gridcell within the context of a grid
… how does the group feel about that
… silence
… agreement?
<cyns> seems fine!
scotto: Silence is roaring agreement
scotto: Agree to do that
And make it clear in the spec
If you do use a cell in a gridcell, there are attributes available to you but not if use a cell outside of a table
… be clear in the spec on that
@jamesn Do we have the same attributes to cell and gridcell right now?
scotto: No
… gridcell for instance allows for aria-selected, but cell does not
… that's why it would be quicker to just say in a definition that roles are interchangeable
… make it clear you can't put aria-selected on a cell in a table
jamesn: sounds like some work to do around that
scotto: Interested in reviewing it, not doing the work
thinkbulecount2
spectranaut_: Moving on next item
ARIA should clarify distinction between “contents exposed as descendant text nodes” vs “name from contents” (Was: listitem should include name from Contents or name prohibited) and -> td, th naming doesn't align with ARIA
spectranaut_: jcraig was on a meeting last week and we decided to discuss larger issue
… does anyone want to champion the discussion
… this is #2160 aria clarify distinction
jamesn: I think we should punt it til James is back
Document interop of misspelled aria-labeledby and its conflict resolution
spectranaut_: #2093 aria-labeledby misspelled
… we did ask Rahim, he is not on the call but we can discuss this
… asked for a few more tests of order precedence of the two versions of aria-labelledby
… non-standard spelling tests pass all of browsers except Firefox since it doesn't support this non-standard spelling with the labeledby
jamesn: I think it does support, just that the preference/order is different
spectranaut_: Looks like Firefox fails on div with role group is labelled by ARIA by non-standard spelling
jamesn: I thought all engines support it
spectranaut_: Looks like it doesn't support it tho
keithamus: is it flagged?
… is it within Firefox patched but under feature flag
spectranaut_: I think it would be linked to an issue but I don't see one
spectranaut_: Firefox's implementation is either off or very incomplete
… not supported in Firefox, but other tests important to look at
… link labelled by aria-labelledby supercedes aria-labeledby
jamesn: I'm interested in a test where they reverse the order
scotto: Rahim did comment that he added more tests
… It does seem that there needs to be a decision
… we either treat aria-labeledby the same as the correct spelling
… essentially just a synonym
… these tests show that there is an order of preference where correct spelling takes precedent over the other
… in this case can't say it's a synonym, its first instance should be used, additional instance ignored -- consistently
… we need to make browsers fix it so it's consistent, or this spec needs to be updated to duplicate aria-labelledby and add this additional spelling with order of precedence
spectranaut_: No one on queue?
jamesn: I hate this
… don't we have better things to do than fix author errors?
spectranaut_: What is the easiest way forward in terms of documenting and fixing?
… aria-labeledby is fallback
… and movve on
scotto: doesn't resolve the dual declaration because it happens
spectranaut_: In terms of browser implementation it's easier than keeping track of order by the time you process these attributes
keithamus: the parser will collect attributes as it hits them I think
… I agree with your solution though
spectranaut_: Isn't the case that browsers already implemented what I discussed?
… if aria-labelled is after aria-labeled, it's still used by Chrome and Safari that implement this spelling
scotto: That's a different way as a path forward
… there's an order of precedence where the correct spelling is higher in the algorithm
… where are people going to look for it
cyns: important that it's consistent behaviour across browsers
sarah:
Do we have to do anything about this? ^
… I can misspell aria-labelledby a number of ways
… not out of real of author mistakes
… just let browser handle error as they want to
<Theo-MSFT> Why is this not just caught in linters? Why are we fixing misspellings in the spec?
cyns: Americans hate the way it's spelled
pkra: If people think this should be a synonym
… this is invalid aria syntax, but otherwise, just make it a synonym
<Theo-MSFT> I was saying the same thing as Sarah, Peter above.
sarah: Much less confusing to have one way of doing things and not 2
<cyns> +1 to synonym
keithamus: Totally valid to pick one even if it's not ideal spelling, problem is we have precedence today
… there's inconsistency in browsers
… maybe we need to determine that instead
… discussion to Chrome/Webkit to unchip labelled by one l
… or we should ratify the semantics of what it is
… neither here nor there but that is the conclusion we need to come to in this group
… until someone specifies it, we just have to make a call and tell the browsers
cyns: What if we say there are synonyms
[missed]
jamesn: What about the IDL? Synonym with the IDL as well?
<cyns> synonyms, but if they point to different values THAT's an author error
jamesn: I think this is going to set up a whole world of hurt down the line
keithamus: Having undefined behaviour in my opinion sets the scenario that the browser will defend the behaviour
… we can define not to have this; unchip labeledby
… if we go ahead and say it's undefined, it probably means browsers will copy Chrome
… we can totally undefined things if we declare it as an author error and have Chrome do a warning to say it's misspelled
sarah: I like what keithamus said, have it documented as an author error
… I don't like synonyms
… We already have a number of those things on the spec
<Theo-MSFT> +1 to Sarahs point about synonyms.
sarah: I really want to avoid introducing a misspelling it makes it harder
cyns: I don't know if it's semi-kosher or misspelling
… there are two ways that English spells this word and would be nice not to have this situation
… I don't like it being undefined but don't like requiring the UK spelling
scotto: I think we're stuck with this
… I don't see any browser unshipping this
… for this, I can imagine far more problematic if overnight controls that did have accessible names no longer do
<cyns> +1
scotto: browsers won't unship this
spectranaut_: There are three proposals, one is to reverse this trend
… some advocates against
… other proposals: adding a synonym
… the other is adding a special case
… correct spelling preferred over the other
… anyone against?
scotto: I don't have strong opinions of either, if it's just noted that aria-labelledby is the proper and labeledby is an author error that is respected, I think there needs to be a note in every applicable spec to make people aware of that order of preference
… if aria just wanted to say it's supported but authors are wrong, I'd be fine with that
sarah: I have nothing against defining the browser fallback
… just not the synonym in the spec
CoryJoseph: I kind of like what is being said
… we define what is the correct spelling but can use this other spelling but it is out of spec
keithamus: My preference would be, let's try to unship this but how deep is the problem
… having it as a synonym seems to be giving us a load of work for little gain
jamesn: I think that the general consensu is to put it in author handling errors section as a special case
spectranaut_: I was going to suggest as well
… to reply to keithamus , not sure if we can unship if it's being used
keithamus: We kind of can
… we can see just what the usage is
… provide things like console warnings
… push out to axe to tell you that this is a failure
… to the point where browsers consider removing it as an attribute
cyns: I'm strongly opposed to doing that
scotto: I hear what you're saying keithamus, but I worry
… some data is better than no data
<Theo-MSFT> what do we do for other areas like Color/Colour?
scotto: everytime I see collection of data, it always skews away from accessibility improvements
scotto: You can't get the data from behind logins, for all the heavy apps that have aria spackled on, we don't get those numbers
… it becomes a big issue, data can't indicate how big of a problem it could be, and when it does come, it will take people by surprise
cyns: The work is happening
keithamus: I think that's the takeaway, if we're not interested in unshipping it, we should be interested in specifying it precisely the mechanics for which it operates
spectranaut_: There seems to be a general move forward with author error
… anyone interested in specifying this
keithamus: Yeah, sure
Values table for aria-multiselectable/aria-current are missing "undefined"
spectranaut_: It seems this is also from Rahim
… straightforward solution or?
… should we look at how this is implemented?
… work is being done by Rahim to correct this language
… anyone see reason not to do this change?
sarah: I'm not sure
… False and undefined are equivalent
… can I review it?
spectranaut_: You can take a closer look
Clarify "undefined" assignment for a state/property as the value (not the string)
sarah: I've read this recently
… there are places in the spec where undefined is in quotations, instead of actual value of undefined
… the spec is ambiguous and misleading
… implies that the string undefined is equivalent to the value undefined
… we should fix it if it's not equivalent, or be more clear
sarah: The string undefined is not equivalent, I find
… you can try that test page on different browsers and got the same results
… string undefined is defined as a string
… it's different on Linux
… Linux is doing things differently but Windows and Mac is undefined
spectranaut_: Confused why it would be different on Linux
… so sounds like the string undefined should not be considered undefined
sarah: Everything seems aligned and doing the same thing that string undefined is not the same as the value undefined
… if anyone else thinks we shouldn't go there
spectranaut_: "Passes" in the table -- what does that mean?
sarah: Rahim might have just passed it as a [missed]
spectranaut_: Anyone else want to weigh in on this?
scotto: I agree we need more answers to what is being tested; what sarah said
spectranaut_: We can just record that the string undefined should not be considered undefined
… that's the conclusion we want to to go with
sarah: If anyone wants to test the browser, you can test the fiddle on your machine
Old issue triage!
spectranaut_: That was our agenda
scotto: Might we have the agenda for next week
… keep the meeting light to get to triaging
jamesn: If we have anything urgent coming up
scotto: It's the internet, everything is urgent
jamesn: Trying to find times on the agenda for things like that