Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference -- 16 Jul 2015

<trackbot> Date: 16 July 2015

<MichaelC> Action 1642 aria-keyshortcut

<trackbot> Error finding '1642'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.

<scribe> scribe: janina

mc: We'll take up what we can, we're short on participation

Heads-up items

mc: Charter reviews are out. Please ask your AC reps to complete the ballot!

fe: Willco

mc: Due 30 July
... Updated WDs published past Tuesday, 13 July

<clown> http://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/4819

mc: Taxonomy diagram not yet updated, regretably.
... Need to catch up on it
... Next hearbeats will probably come from the new ARIA-WG, not from PF as heretofore

Introductions of new participant, Michel -- from Netherlands, is a developer. Wants to get more involved with spec development, code examples, etc.

[going around the table with introductions ...]

Issue 651 and Action 1680 aria-errormessage property

<MichaelC> issue-651?

<trackbot> issue-651 -- Allow aria-invalid to specify more types of errors including custom errors -- raised

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/651

<MichaelC> action-1680?

<trackbot> action-1680 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Draft aria-errormessage property for review - may be at risk in aria 1.1 though -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1680

<clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/aria-errormessage/aria/aria.html#aria-errormessage

js: Did first pass at spec text for error-message
... based on Rich's email draft
... Annotated with questions--needs fleshing out

jn: What happens if msg not in live region?

js: Live region is a requirement

jn: Implicit?

js: Rich was speculating on the exact approach, so currently in a note

jn: Would think one should be able to use a pre-defined live region implicitly

js: Rich didn't like log

jn: But log doesn't have to scroll
... Don't think we should forbid

m: Use case?

jn: Not off the top of my head, but don't see why we would prohibit

m: Log implies it persists, no?

<clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/aria-errormessage/aria/aria.html#log

js: Definition says "old information may disappear"

jn: So, log isn't necessary a tech log, might be a chat

m: One definition of log is error log, so should be OK

mc: Sounds like a resolution emerging to not forbid, if not to actually engourage

js: Will update

m: Q about polite or assertive ...

js: Believe up to AT

jn: Believe aria-live is off should also be valid here

<clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/aria-errormessage/aria/aria.html#aria-live

jn: I would tend to use polite on all error msgs

m: Suggesting an error if email addr incomplete -- nothing right of the @

jn: Still want off as OK

js: Set up that way
... Suggest these use cases / examples are for the APG

mc: Not sure about AT, as long as the association is available, they can be obtained

janina: Prefer not too chatty UI for screen reader

bg: Could kill other speech, too

mc: Noting that invalid on form controls better handled one at a time for screen readers

js: Notes not a "must"

fe: But then is there a best practice?

mc: Do we need to recommend one way or the other for live region

js: Think rich is thinking about filling out a form, tabbing off, and get the info right away

mc: Often this happens when hitting submit
... All errors become evident at the point--painted red

m: Depends on validation implementation

mc: Don't think we would prescribe where validation occurs

m: Agree

mc: Is there objection to this approach?
... Seems we're accepting with amendments. Someone needs to finish cleanup

js: Willing to do amendments, Rich needs to check

mc: Do we need an issue/action for APG?

js: Also mappings

<MichaelC> ACTION: clown to drive mapping of aria-errormessage to AAPIs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/07/16-aria-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1686 - Drive mapping of aria-errormessage to aapis [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-07-23].

<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1686 with issue-651

<trackbot> action-1686 (Drive mapping of aria-errormessage to aapis) associated with issue-651.

<MichaelC> ACTION: nurthen to get Authoring Practices guidance on use of aria-errormessage, including use cases for live region or not [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/07/16-aria-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1687 - Get authoring practices guidance on use of aria-errormessage, including use cases for live region or not [on James Nurthen - due 2015-07-23].

<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1687 with issue-651

<trackbot> action-1687 (Get authoring practices guidance on use of aria-errormessage, including use cases for live region or not) associated with issue-651.

aria-interactive

js: Have one q

<MichaelC> issue-1642?

<trackbot> Sorry, but issue-1642 does not exist.

<clown> issue-633?

<trackbot> issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633

js: On api call we thought interactive was dead -- no longer supported

<MichaelC> issue-642?

<trackbot> issue-642 -- alt text computation should distinguish between nameFrom contents during root node calculation versus recursive calculation. -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/642

<clown> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27866

<MichaelC> action-1642?

<trackbot> action-1642 -- Michael Cooper to Create aria-keyshortcut proposal to group -- due 2015-06-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1642

js: So, first, is interactive still a go?

jn: Fully support something like this
... Something that can tell an sr that there's something interactive here

mc: Seems we dropped this in favor of revisiting table rows

fe: that was grid vs table

mc: Not finding that we took this up for non tabular contexts

jn: Originally proposed outsie of tabular, we need to get back to that context
... interactive=tru should be only specifiable value

js: On role checkbox?
... wouldn't that be implied?

bg: Supposed to handle composite widgets
... e.g. date picker

fe: But menus are often just js, and wouldn't be needed

js: So needed for non widget that are interactive

jn: Don't care for the application hack, though this is only slightly better

bg: concerned this could be put on all kinds of wierd sutff, e.g. accordians

jn: agree there's misuse opportunity, but also occasions where it's necessary
... Interactive charts
... avoids an extra layer of nesting

fe: but really function as a substitute for application role

jn: yes
... Recall conversation wanted to limit to certain roles
... Some people wanted to limit to a small set of roles
... Would prefer not so limited

bg: Still concerned about misuse

fe: Could appear constraining -- dpub; graphics, not just html

mc: Seems we've gone away from keyboard shortcuts ...
... James, can you write up a proposal?

jn: Yes, but on vacation for 4 of the next 5 weeks
... No time until mid september

[timeline and scoping discussion ...]

mc: Seems best for the proposal to come from Nurthen

<MichaelC> ACTION: nurthen to draft proposal for aria-interactive - due 1 Oct [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/07/16-aria-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1688 - Draft proposal for aria-interactive [on James Nurthen - due 2015-10-01].

<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1688 with issue-633

<trackbot> action-1688 (Draft proposal for aria-interactive) associated with issue-633.

Action 1642 aria-keyshortcut

<MichaelC> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/Keyboard_Shortcuts/aria/aria.html#aria-kbdshortcuts

mc: Believe Rich's proposal intended to meet requirements of the cited emails, but may need more
... Notes that its listed in HTML TF wish list

<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/51wishlist#Keyboard_Interaction

follw links for TAB index and for AccessKey from this link

<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Keyboard

janina: Should we punt to WAPA?

mc: not sure
... Was a wider concern for IndieUI, where it was more than keyboard

fe: Isn't the purpose just notify aT

js: Dominic just to document
... So, tell the user, doesn't change the user agent's behavior, just exposes shortcuts to user

m: Putting in head makes sense, but should include what it does, not just how activated list

fe: Dowe have an example how this could be used?

jn: If I have "save" only in a menu, not visible on screen, but I know I can do Ctrl-S

mc: Rich's would not address ??

jn: It woudln't

<Michiel> So, something like: <meta name="shortcut" key="ctrl+s" description="Save state">?

mc: Not fully absorbed, but think would get significant opposition
... Some say "wrong approach" and some saying "good start, but" and yet others saying "out of scope, another WG is taking it up"
... If we don't accept the proposal, what happens?

js: Authors will have to provide their own documentation for their key strokes

jn: wonders about multiple key strokes, but without modifiers

mc: depends on dom

<jamesn> Twitter style shortcuts..... i.e. g then h for go home

[discussion whether this moves us forward, or makes things worse]

mc: Let's shop to HTML-A11Y TF

Review Open Action Items and Issues

<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17

mc: Looking at items for persons present on the call
... Any news about Matt

jn: Possibly next week, definitely week following

action-1151?

<trackbot> action-1151 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Create a flowchart or process diagram of the ARIA accessible name computation -- due 2015-04-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1151

js: Not sure when I can do this
... Need software to draw it

mc: Go by hand, and send to me

fe: I can also take up if you start by hand

<MichaelC> action-1151 due 1 Oct

<trackbot> Set action-1151 Create a flowchart or process diagram of the ARIA accessible name computation due date to 2015-10-01.

<MichaelC> action-1151: can draw by hand and send to MC for FE to electronicize

<trackbot> Notes added to action-1151 Create a flowchart or process diagram of the ARIA accessible name computation.

<MichaelC> action-1151: or MB

<trackbot> Notes added to action-1151 Create a flowchart or process diagram of the ARIA accessible name computation.

<MichaelC> action-1439?

<trackbot> action-1439 -- Michael Cooper to Set up redirects from CVS PF editors' drafts -- due 2014-05-14 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1439

action-1436?

<trackbot> action-1436 -- Shane McCarron to Review css custom properties for cascading variables module level 1 http://www.w3.org/tr/2014/wd-css-variables-1-20140506/ -- due 2014-05-21 -- CLOSED

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1436

mc: Didn't want to overdue, believe we should close

<MichaelC> close action-1439

<trackbot> Closed action-1439.

action-1489?

<trackbot> action-1489 -- Michael Cooper to Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby) -- due 2015-05-01 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1489

<MichaelC> action-1489 due 1 month

<trackbot> Set action-1489 Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby) due date to 2015-08-16.

action-1513?

<trackbot> action-1513 -- Michael Cooper to Set up ARIA 1.1 Requirements draft -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1513

<MichaelC> action-1513 due 1 month

<trackbot> Set action-1513 Set up ARIA 1.1 Requirements draft due date to 2015-08-16.

action-1617?

<trackbot> action-1617 -- Michael Cooper to Set up shared references for aria repository -- due 2015-04-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1617

<MichaelC> close action-1617

<trackbot> Closed action-1617.

action-1624?

<trackbot> action-1624 -- Michael Cooper to Work with shane to develop publication strategy and solution that would exclude abstract roles for authors -- due 2015-04-30 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1624

mc: Believe we have progressm but incomplete

<MichaelC> action-1624 due 1 month

<trackbot> Set action-1624 Work with shane to develop publication strategy and solution that would exclude abstract roles for authors due date to 2015-08-16.

action-1632?

<trackbot> action-1632 -- Michael Cooper to Start documentation on how we do aria spec and modules -- due 2015-05-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1632

mc: Should come with new WG home pages

action-1642?

<trackbot> action-1642 -- Michael Cooper to Create aria-keyshortcut proposal to group -- due 2015-06-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1642

<MichaelC> close action-1642

<trackbot> Closed action-1642.

action-1672?

<trackbot> action-1672 -- Michael Cooper to Mark aria-grabbed, aria-dropeffect as deprecated and provide reference definition of derprecated -- due 2015-07-09 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1672

<MichaelC> action-1672 due 1 month

<trackbot> Set action-1672 Mark aria-grabbed, aria-dropeffect as deprecated and provide reference definition of derprecated due date to 2015-08-16.

action-1679?

<trackbot> action-1679 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Start exploring content for a potential whitepaper on the difference between readonly and disabled -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1679

action-1680?

<trackbot> action-1680 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Draft aria-errormessage property for review - may be at risk in aria 1.1 though -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1680

action-1467?

<trackbot> action-1467 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose edit to issue-522: clarify presentation mentions in TAC -- due 2014-07-07 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1467

<clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1467

issue-522?

<trackbot> issue-522 -- Name Computation 2A - bullet 3 confusion -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/522

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html#step2D

js: Put text from issue into in accessible name computation, and noted as such
... Waiting for review on the rewording

mc: Any opinions?
... Edits seems OK. We accept

<MichaelC> issue-695: ¨neither/nor¨ vs ¨either/or¨